Author Topic: Veroria, The Lone Keep is Toxic (in pubs)  (Read 6019 times)

Offline Cleanse

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Re: Veroria, The Lone Keep is Toxic (in pubs)
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2015, 12:28:28 AM »
Rare(and all artifact/location cards are rare)

In fact a lot of artifacts and locations are below rare:
  • Ancient Aggression Emblem
  • Defensive Perimeter
  • Low Orbit Ion Cannon
  • Luftkrieg XI, Anti-Air Array
  • War Machine
  • Altar of Binding
  • Wall of the Dead
  • Mysterious Box of Wonder
  • Filing Cabinet

  • Breeding Grounds
  • Corrupted Forest
  • Ruins of an Ancient Civilization
  • Veroria, the Lone Keep
  • Honor Hill
  • Solace's Gate
  • Contained Parallel Rift

Also, almost all Artifact and Location hate is below rare.

EDIT: Got ninja'd by CommunistMountain. Oh well. ;)
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 12:50:09 AM by Cleanse »

Offline Thechynd

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Re: Veroria, The Lone Keep is Toxic (in pubs)
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2015, 12:41:32 AM »
i suppose it's too late to do anything now, apart from slowly phasing in artifacts/locations that come with their own removal clauses
Alternatively just adding more location removal cards that are strong enough to be playable even if they don't end up destroying a location. Annihilate is incredible because it can also destroy characters and Consecrating angel provides a decent body for overseers (though admittedly she has trouble dealing with this particular location). Give us (far) more cards like those so that players naturally end up putting location removal in their deck even if they weren't specifically looking for it.

Offline Ragnoraok

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Re: Veroria, The Lone Keep is Toxic (in pubs)
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2015, 02:22:51 AM »
i suppose it's too late to do anything now, apart from slowly phasing in artifacts/locations that come with their own removal clauses
Alternatively just adding more location removal cards that are strong enough to be playable even if they don't end up destroying a location. Annihilate is incredible because it can also destroy characters and Consecrating angel provides a decent body for overseers (though admittedly she has trouble dealing with this particular location). Give us (far) more cards like those so that players naturally end up putting location removal in their deck even if they weren't specifically looking for it.

^This...so much this.

I was going to make a topic suggesting this as well, but a lot of the game's imbalances could be ameliorated if more viable artifact and location removals are added. At the least, there should be a factionless card for 6 resources that destroys any non-character card in play. There are so many times when I actually took the risk of putting in Vandalize into my deck, in order to deal with powerful GI artifacts....actually beat the odds to have one in hand, just to have an opponent use "The Dragon Project." -_-

Please, next expansion focus more on defensive options, specifically balancing the amount of viable removals among each faction.

Also, I forgot to mention this in my initial post, but how can a card be toxic in one format and not in another? Double standards on this board seems to be the standard. What sense does it make to nerf a card because it is toxic to pub-play? A card should be nerfed by virtue of its own inertly overpowered abilities.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2015, 02:40:19 AM by Ragnoraok »

Offline Rethorian

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Re: Veroria, The Lone Keep is Toxic (in pubs)
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2015, 03:02:09 AM »
The real solution is making sure artifacts and locations aren't powerful enough to warrant being removed in the first place. 95% of all artifacts and locations don't need a hard counter to be dealt with: You can deal with them by using normal in-game mechanics.

If you make it so every deck has removal for artifacts and locations, all that will happen is no one will use Artifacts or Locations that aren't simply more beneficial to play than be removed. Then you make an arms race as you shove Untouchable and Shield and Indestructible onto artifacts/locations if you want to make a good one that people actually use. Then you have to make a card to remove indestructible locations/artifacts... and so on and so forth.

Omnitron has shield 1. Does anyone care? No, because you simply counter Omnitron by not letting the game drag out that long. Omnimind? Same thing. Shield Generator? Same thing. People didnt stop playing Lanstead because people ran location removal, people stopped playing Lanstead because you could play around it easily enough.

Untapped Wilderness? People don't bother removing it even when they can, because it's not worth the tempo loss. No one removes Mechanism.

Stop asking for removal, start designing cards that don't require hard counters in the first place. The only role a hard counter should have in the game, is an absolute last resort to allows players in a meta to adapt around a deck that may be too dominant.

Any location or artifact that is overpowered without removal, and completely useless against removal is just bad card design.

Offline Ragnoraok

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Re: Veroria, The Lone Keep is Toxic (in pubs)
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2015, 03:36:25 AM »
Umm, no. *Bolded are the especially powerful cards*

List of powerful Artifacts:

Descendants of Dragons:

1) Shifting Stone
2) Quest for Balance

Warpath:

1) Ancient Aether
2) Ancient Aggression Emblem

Genesis Industries:

1) Junkyard
2) Warmachine
3) Low Orbit Ion Cannon
4) Omnitron
5) Flux Capacitor (Maybe)

Sleepers:

1) Tome of the Dead

Overseers:

1) Box of wonders




List of powerful locations:

Verore:

1) Veroria the Lone Keep
2) Hellmouth

Descendants of Dragon:

1) Jinhai Dojo
2) Shrin to the Heavens

Genesis Industries:

1) The Dragon Project
2) Lanstead

Sleepers:

1) Kyrallic

Overseers:

1) Solace's Gate



List of powerful Missions:

1) Struggle for Power
2) Counting the Days


A lot of these artifacts and locations are so powerful that entire strategies are built around abusing their abilities. Hell, some of them, such as the topic of this discussion, Box of Wonders, Shrine to the Heavens, and Solace's Gate, to name a few, completely and utterly shut down an opponent's strategy.

Viable removals are necessary in circumventing the sheer power of some of these removals. Putting in a card that removals a card from any category, barring creatures, will actually enhance unique playstyles.

« Last Edit: June 21, 2015, 03:39:17 AM by Ragnoraok »

Offline Rethorian

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Re: Veroria, The Lone Keep is Toxic (in pubs)
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2015, 03:56:54 AM »
I've beaten pretty much all the decks that use the cards you listed (aside from Veroria and Dojo) without maindecking any direct removal.

I guess I hack the game or something?

If all decks could remove the ones that are actually win conditions without sideboards, then all of those will never see play. Bad design.

Offline Ragnoraok

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Re: Veroria, The Lone Keep is Toxic (in pubs)
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2015, 04:15:39 AM »
I've beaten pretty much all the decks that use the cards you listed (aside from Veroria and Dojo) without maindecking any direct removal.

I guess I hack the game or something?

If all decks could remove the ones that are actually win conditions without sideboards, then all of those will never see play. Bad design.

I've beaten decks that abused these cards too, but the ones who have actually dedicated an entire deck to them tnd to win.

Putting in removals for these cards will encourage more diverse playstyles, because playing Counting the Days turn 5 will not automatically result in a win; using Box of Wonders to remove a troublesome monster, using Junkyard to give a behemoth flying and shield, using Lanstead to effortless build an army of 15/15 Neverending drone, or using Solace's Gate to make Martyr Golem even more of a nuisance, or abusing Veroria to easily control the pace of the match will not result in domination over those who decks lack the means to stop those artifacts or locations. 

Also, playstyles will be less linear, as counting on one artifact, location, or mission to win will be a huge risk.

Those cards will still be used, albeit to a lesser degree. By your logic Annihilate should be nerfed since it is a generic removal, but even worse, it is faction locked.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2015, 04:29:07 AM by Ragnoraok »

Offline Dreamplume

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Re: Veroria, The Lone Keep is Toxic (in pubs)
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2015, 08:08:25 AM »
I hate Veroria the Lone Keep to me personally it is a stupid card now to use in normal matches just so your opponent can stall the game for 4 turns etc.. till they draw cards.

Example:

Did a match the other day using a 3 purity exile deck with yagron I was smashing the person deck even with the removal not to mention when I used denial of reason to check my opponents hand and destroy. While checking two calamity's for one which mad me go to myself for god sake really but that what was not stopping me it was the lone keep he drew and stalled the game for 4 turns to use calamity, create 20/20 flyers and oblivion.

That card was so much better before it got changed to stalling games but what do I know and it not as if we don't have the utility to give back the fortress damage lone keep takes.

Offline Zombieskittles

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Re: Veroria, The Lone Keep is Toxic (in pubs)
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2015, 10:31:53 AM »
I disagree on the being better thing Dreamplume. It felt even stronger back then, and if you combine it with say, Luftkrieg they can only attack with fliers who would in turn take 6 damage per attack.

The card as is could be tweaked but it isn't viciously terrible as some comments here seem to suggest.

Offline martenus

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Re: Veroria, The Lone Keep is Toxic (in pubs)
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2015, 11:08:29 AM »
Not sure this is really a Problem Design wise the card is Questionable even more so in the light of the recent nerf of  Winds because the use a very familiar mecanic. But than in around 150 games i never seen a single lone keep :P Problem is there is alot better and alot more toxic Decks nowdays so no one stalls with Keep anymore its not effective enoungh :P

Offline Thechynd

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Re: Veroria, The Lone Keep is Toxic (in pubs)
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2015, 12:20:39 PM »
Also, I forgot to mention this in my initial post, but how can a card be toxic in one format and not in another? Double standards on this board seems to be the standard. What sense does it make to nerf a card because it is toxic to pub-play? A card should be nerfed by virtue of its own inertly overpowered abilities.
Its less toxic in ranked because although location removal is generally too weak to be playable in the main deck, you can at least sideboard it in after the first round of a ranked match.

That card was so much better before it got changed to stalling games but what do I know and it not as if we don't have the utility to give back the fortress damage lone keep takes.
Veroria was pretty toxic in its old form as well. There were more options for countering it (flyers, unstoppable, removal/stumbling of their blockers) but it could potentially shut down your offense even more than it does now if you had fewer flyers/unstoppables than they had removal cards (likely vs verore) due to the fact it only costed them a small amount of morale each turn, something the creature light verore decks tended to have in plentiful supply. Keep in mind that not only did it work well with token producers that could let them endlessly chumpblock, it also existed at the same time as 14/14 hydras (they were both changed in the same patch).

Offline Grinnin_Gin

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Re: Veroria, The Lone Keep is Toxic (in pubs)
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2015, 04:53:52 PM »
The issue really isnt removal. Veroria is just a stupid, binary card where you either have removal and win, or don't and lose. It's not the kind of card that frankly deserves to exist in Infinity Wars, in my honest opinion.

Offline ecliptix

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Re: Veroria, The Lone Keep is Toxic (in pubs)
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2015, 05:05:42 PM »
The issue really isnt removal. Veroria is just a stupid, binary card where you either have removal and win, or don't and lose. It's not the kind of card that frankly deserves to exist in Infinity Wars, in my honest opinion.

^This. 100 times this. There is no skill involved in this. There is no deckbuilding finesse. Its just a stupid game of "who can draw better". At that point you honestly may as well change everything to 4 suits, make your deck 52 cards and see who can draw all the aces first. And if your opponent already happens to have all 4 aces its a slow grind to defeat.

There are some another stallish cards I'm not going to mention here that can frustrate me for similar reasons, but at least they don't bring the game to a grinding halt to go fish.
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Offline Ragnoraok

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Re: Veroria, The Lone Keep is Toxic (in pubs)
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2015, 05:22:01 PM »
The issue really isnt removal. Veroria is just a stupid, binary card where you either have removal and win, or don't and lose. It's not the kind of card that frankly deserves to exist in Infinity Wars, in my honest opinion.


^This. 100 times this. There is no skill involved in this. There is no deckbuilding finesse. Its just a stupid game of "who can draw better". At that point you honestly may as well change everything to 4 suits, make your deck 52 cards and see who can draw all the aces first. And if your opponent already happens to have all 4 aces its a slow grind to defeat.

There are some another stallish cards I'm not going to mention here that can frustrate me for similar reasons, but at least they don't bring the game to a grinding halt to go fish.

I also agree. The need for artifact/mission/location removal is more of a long term response for existing and future very powerful non-creature cards that have the potential to shut down an opponent's strategy with little to no effort on the part of the user. Like some have said, there are even more ridiculous and toxic strategies out there, a good amount abusing non-creature cards.

I would much rather see factionless generic non-creature removal(s), before seeing Veroria nerfed. I suggest the following.

1) 4 resource "Overcharge once. Destroy target artifact or mission."

2) 4 resource "Overcharge once. Destroy target artifact or location."

3) 4 resource "Overcharge once. Destroy target location or mission."

4) 6 resource "Either Overcharge twice or reduce your maximum amount of resources by two. Remove target non-creature card from the game."
« Last Edit: June 21, 2015, 05:23:57 PM by Ragnoraok »

Offline Heaven-Canceler

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Re: Veroria, The Lone Keep is Toxic (in pubs)
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2015, 06:17:14 PM »
Just buff all the other Locations to the same Level as the Lone Keep so People have reasons to always put Location removal into their decks^^

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