Author Topic: How do you deal with Flame Dawn  (Read 1016 times)

wham

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How do you deal with Flame Dawn
« on: April 09, 2015, 05:33:32 PM »
I was just reflecting on my experiences, when as a newbie, my karani deck was only able to be outscaled by one deck - Flame Dawn.

The problem I was having then was that although you can bring out one or two defenders by turn three or four to stop a FD rush, they can simply be stumbled back into support. Hermit solves this by haste creatures and having the best token generation in the game - Eucalyptus tree. But those options aren't really available to pure WP, where you need larger creatures in order to trade effectively with your opponent, and any haste defender gets 1hit by kali.

The warpath player can't really defend until they get a 3 cost beast out, at which point they may have already lost 20-30 hp, and it will get immediately stumbled and a lucky opponent will have an opportunity to hit you quite hard. At that point a game could easily be finished by a charge Shikana, Sacculas, or calamity.

Off the top of my head, I can think of only two methods warpath has to avoid soft control like stumble, which could otherwise easily steal the game from the WP player, both of which are resource inefficient and probably quite hard to pull off.

What do you think? Does warpath need low drops? Does warpath need a Gao Han? Does Warpath need to Gao home?

Offline HeliosAFlame

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Re: How do you deal with Flame Dawn
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2015, 05:40:26 PM »
I feel warpath should either bring in answers from outside the faction via splashes or rely on their inherent strength in the later game. Not every faction needs to be equally powerful at all stages in the game or needs to have answers at every stage. With the hermit example you still often take 30-40 dmg quite early because you want to sit in support and scale for a few turns rather than just rush out to block Kali and end up with no board on turn 5 against an increasingly large aggressive force.

In return you start outscaling them hard in the mid game making it hard for them to do the last 60 dmg without such things as calamity or fear ferocity. At this point the onus is on you to take advantage of your mid game spike to actually kill them. I think that is a problem many people have with flame dawn, they don't know when they need to attack and thus end up giving fd the time to draw answers for their last 30 hp.

FD is not nearly as scary if you can consitently kill them around turn 9 which hermit often can while also fending off their mid game attacks.

Offline Benionin

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Re: How do you deal with Flame Dawn
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2015, 07:20:22 PM »
What do you think? Does warpath need low drops? Does warpath need a Gao Han? Does Warpath need to Gao home?

I think the answer to this question is obvious.
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wham

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Re: How do you deal with Flame Dawn
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2015, 10:16:53 PM »
I feel warpath should either bring in answers from outside the faction via splashes or rely on their inherent strength in the later game. Not every faction needs to be equally powerful at all stages in the game or needs to have answers at every stage.
...
In return you start outscaling them hard in the mid game making it hard for them to do the last 60 dmg without such things as calamity or fear ferocity. At this point the onus is on you to take advantage of your mid game spike to actually kill them.
To be clear, I'm not asking for more an easier way for hermit players to beat FD. Hermit already has a nearly overwhelming advantage over most other decks, FD included. What I am looking for is a way for 3WP to come into a game with their first units without being immediately stumbled back into support, letting the FD player hit for 40 damage.

The problem with the situation you're describing is that a flame dawn player can easily understand when their attacks aren't going to go through, and back into support. Depending on how the match is going, I would estimate that by the time a FD player backs out of attack they've dealt between 40-80 damage, and in the worst case scenario can easily use a finishing move like a flier, Sacullas, nix, fiery wish, calamity, even more stumbles, or inane combos from other factions like tactical retreat + tokens + bromich or MD/Fear + Ferocity.

Should I, as a 3WP with low health, just go all-in for two or three turns against a flame dawn player that's building an overwhelming force of cheap, high attack units in their support zone? Maybe I'm just playing Warpath wrong and I need to simply guess when is the right turn to attack.

Will guessing when to defend really prevent a loss, though? As a FD player, with nix I can nullify 3-5 (usually) of those beefy expensive creatures for the whole turn - which seems like a short time until you realize that that turn is the rest of the game.

Offline goobypls

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Re: How do you deal with Flame Dawn
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2015, 10:34:25 PM »
I'm afraid you have to wait for the next set and hope they will release some much needed Warpath support in the form of characters with untouchable or cannot be killed by non-damage sources effects, because as of now, Triple Warpath is not only slow, but also has zero staying power.

Offline IguanaMan

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Re: How do you deal with Flame Dawn
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2015, 10:47:29 PM »
Isn't this just a bad matchup?  Flame Dawn is great when facing only a few large defenders, and struggles against token defense.  Stumble, Exhaust, Flashbang, Harbinger of Light, Nix - they are all designed to combat a few huge defenders.  Not to mention that FD generally trade well against big vanilla characters due to having higher attack than normal for cost.

Bad matchups are a thing and 3WP has more of them, as it is not in a great place at the moment.  I hope 3WP and 3DoD get some love in the next set.
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Offline HeliosAFlame

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Re: How do you deal with Flame Dawn
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2015, 11:08:54 PM »
Some of it is just bad match up. That said there are some tools 3wp can use. Fight! off command zone can be an effective way of slowing fd down in the early turns as well as haste creatures of your own. Drop bear and skraar are both scary without needing hermit. Eucalyptus tree is also useful for absorbing huge amounts of damage in a similar but reverse way to fear ferocity.

Other than that honestly yes, you have to go for the fortress in the mid game with good predicts and an understanding that attacking is just as scary for them as not defending is for you since even if they have got 60 dmg through already if they throw away their entire board rather than waiting for nix they will lose. Flame dawn has to play in a very different way when they are also on 40 compared to when they are at 100. Also yes sometimes you will just lose if they start predicting this and just all inning earlier, the trade is that sometimes they will just lose if they try for such a predict when you are acutally playing safe.

Offline Interesting_Socks

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Re: How do you deal with Flame Dawn
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2015, 02:52:39 PM »
The trick to beating FD is your command zone. Rakarl being the most important commander imo. He'll force stumbles out of FD early game and that often causes them to run out of steam.