Author Topic: Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?  (Read 5033 times)

Offline Kungen

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Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?
« on: January 03, 2015, 07:12:07 PM »
Destroying the fun of collecting.
and Lightmare you will lose money/players!

Wow the new patch with "champion trait mechanic" totally destroys Overssers(true they were strong a nerf could be needed but) this new patch makes a collectible card game pointless to collect, losing money for Lightmare studios and all of us that have "collected" and quite frankly makes it boring to collect "champions".

Hear me out here:
It is totally pointless to collect all those champion cards I have now as you can only play one of them and having the rest take up your hand space, combine that with the nerf on Heaven's assistance and Precautionary mesures and I think my Overssers days are over. Just the nerf on Heaven's assistance and Precutionar mesures would have been huge. The new "champion trait" just makes a collectible card game not so collectible anymore, as it is pointless to collect the different champions, you just pick the best champion for your deck and add 1-3 of that champion as the other champions most likely won't see any play(what if the champion dies you say, well much better to have another copy of that champion you thought was best in your hand than one that would remove your best champion if played). And having a "Angelic horde" of different unique Angels was the whole theme of "OversserS" (now it is more peck minions and ONE Oversser)...
:-) even bought a whole Overssers deck just to get a Kraos before I looked in to the "champion mechanics" and now he is a "champion" so he will most likely not see much play... Players will start realize the pointlessness of having multiple champions pretty quick... took me 1 game, too late though ;-)

Would have been much better to nerf every "champion" individually if that was the problem than making them pointless to have.

Cheers glad I got the game working though finally again, just to get this shock haha

/Kungen
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 07:19:28 PM by Kungen »

Offline xneosrevenge

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Re: Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2015, 07:26:17 PM »
Hey there, Kungen!
I'm sorry you feel so strongly about the Overseer's change but it seems like your opinion is more about Overseers rather than the whole game as your title implies. The Overseers underwent a change due to their playstyle. They weren't a unique faction and just seemed to be flying spam. Currently, they have a unique "Champion" system that allows the player to choose a Champion (or more) that will lead their deck.
This being said, The Overseers of Solace are still very playable and people still look for these cards. Unfortunately, I did not read in your post anywhere on how this game became less of a collectible game. The only thing you mentioned is that you can't play more than one Champion. Personally, I believe Scramble to be the worst card in the game (as do many others) but, as a collector of Premium Exiles, I have collected a Premium Set of them (atleast 1 Gold Foil, Plat Foil, Gold, Plat, Foil). This is the collecting aspect of the game. I am collecting a barely playable card because I enjoy it.
May I ask why Kraos will not see much play? Kraos is great against Flame Dawn as he does 3 damage everyone when he hits the opponent's fortress. DoD can support this small damage while Flame Dawn will whither. I see you love the Overseers but maybe you should consider other playstyles rather than one that is making you feel so negatively. There are a lot of options out there and there are many, many cards for you to collect.
Do remember that this game is expanding rapidly and new cards are being released roughly every four months. New factions will be rising while others fall. These changes will make some cards stronger and others weaker. It wouldn't be a bad idea to start collecting a playset of everything just incase that card you think is horrible now suddenly becomes meta.
I hope I helped you out and if you have any more questions or concerns just post. Remember, if you have any suggestions feel free to post in the Suggestions section on the forums.
"We adore chaos because we love to produce order." -M. C. Escher

Offline Kungen

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Re: Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2015, 07:47:18 PM »
Hi :-) Thank you for replying.

I have played most OversserS true, and I liked the theme of a Angelic heavenly horde of unique Angels and the possibility to play them all out. Now adding "champion" cards to a deck can ruin it. Drawing "champion" cards and have your hand be taken up by cards you cannot play/use is no fun and there is no workaround to use them.

1: For a pro player it would be devastating to draw and have his hand taken up by "champions" he can't play or use. Rotating champion cards out from battlefield to hand would be totally ineffective, while the other can play out more and more or play what ever will take the Battlefield dominance. (I am not a pro player)

2: As a casual player having collected cool unique angels and have them clog up your hand as playing one removes the only one you have on the board and return it to your hand of rotatable "champions" is no fun and a guaranteed lose. And more a flavor thing, to not even have the possibility of creating that Angelic Overssers decent of unique flavored Angels takes away from the theme of multiple oversserS. For all who causally choose to play/collect Overssers for the theme and not their previous power it's quite a let down not to be able to send your cards out in numbers just rotate them out 1 by 1.

True if I consider Kraos to be the best for the deck he will be used at the expense of the other "champions" I have collected making a lose lose circle. Nerfing a faction is fine, they rise and fall... but making cards you have collected just a hand space clog is no fun and pointless to collect them to your deck.

It is sad they took the other route of instead nerfing every champion individually but still keep the theme and flavor of horde of angels and possibility to play them, they went with buffing every champion cause you can only have one, making it even more 1 unique champion per deck oriented and pointless to collect more... they could choose the one way or the other... they chose the less fun and less collector friendly of the two.

Cheers for your thoughts though
/Kungen
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 08:00:37 PM by Kungen »

Offline DarkenShroud

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Re: Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2015, 07:48:40 PM »
I honestly feel the same way, you pretty much made awhole lot of os cards unplayable period. Changing cards to say something and effect things different would have been just fine. The champion mechanic has pretty much made alot of os cards again unplayable and a waste of space to even own. 1 or 2 champions in deck that are even worth it, and the rest stay in your collection gathering dust. I agreed with OS nerf 100 %, however you went overboard with champions  ::) adding it to more cards then you needed to. The unique trait is enough, without champions ontop of it

Offline ORISOLVE

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Re: Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2015, 09:06:38 PM »
No offense, but Lightmare just did things wrong. If the champions were all equally as powerful, then the ability to pick and choose which champions should be difficult for the player to decide. It would still be a collectible card game, and having the option to pick which champion to use and which not to use against a certain deck in ranked is a huge deal. In my opinion, Sol is the only useful champion who's power is above and beyond the rest. By turning Harahel and Lilariah into champions, they now lack decent characters who are not champions. While I'm at it, I might as well complain about the uselessness and and the over-demanding purity restrictions of Ascended Aberion and Ascended Gaohan.

Also if Scramble costed less it might be useful. I also have an idea to make the effect of Scramble allowing the player of Scramble to sort the enemy characters based on health/attack from lowest to highest, or highest to lowest depending on their needs.
Where there's a will, there's a way.


wham

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Re: Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2015, 09:33:57 PM »
Also if Scramble costed less it might be useful.
Is there some sort of connection I'm missing between scramble and The Overseers? Scramble is a card that was released in february, so the chances of it actually being changed are around 0.

Offline 3Sleeper

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Re: Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2015, 10:16:09 PM »
No offense, but Lightmare just did things wrong. If the champions were all equally as powerful, then the ability to pick and choose which champions should be difficult for the player to decide. It would still be a collectible card game, and having the option to pick which champion to use and which not to use against a certain deck in ranked is a huge deal. In my opinion, Sol is the only useful champion who's power is above and beyond the rest. By turning Harahel and Lilariah into champions, they now lack decent characters who are not champions. While I'm at it, I might as well complain about the uselessness and and the over-demanding purity restrictions of Ascended Aberion and Ascended Gaohan.

Also if Scramble costed less it might be useful. I also have an idea to make the effect of Scramble allowing the player of Scramble to sort the enemy characters based on health/attack from lowest to highest, or highest to lowest depending on their needs.

spot on 8)
+1 agree

the champions should be made into 2-3 separate groups(utility,attack) where you can have only 1 champ from a group on the field or something like that.
currently you cant even have a simple card synergy with Gao Han and another champ.

Offline Grinnin_Gin

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Re: Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2015, 11:26:50 PM »
Do people forget that theres going to be a huge balance revision occuring sometime at the start of the year that will address most of these concerns.

Offline Kungen

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Re: Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2015, 12:01:49 AM »
If the "rebalance" removes the "champion mechanic" I might start playing OversserS again. They can be nerfed in other ways. That mechanic is just dumb and takes all the fun, theme and synergy out of playing or collecting Overssers. The already 1 unique of the same unique card in play was enough and a good mechanic, can't have your dimensional twin running around but you could play the card types you have collected.

"Champion curse" is one of the dumbest mechanics I've seen put in to a collectable card game, there are so many better ways to nerf a faction and still allow the player to use his collected cards. At the HIGHEST it should have been a cap limit to 1 card of a unique Angel in deck so the enemy could be quite certain an angel would not come into play again if he had killed it ones. Now instead more than 1 champion in a deck is a liability. If you draw another champion and your other champion is alive you have drawn an almost useless card. That might be alright you think. What if a person has spent a lot of time collecting ALL the now "champion cursed" cards. Drawing cards that you can only play 1 of when the cards are not even the same is total garbage and sets you so behind it's not even fun.

(Sorry the more I've thought of the "champion curse" and all the cards I've tried to collect the more upset I've become, I think I won't play OS at all until this curse has been rethought... and I've lost my motivation to collect cards from the other factions, this dumb mechanic might multiply)

Cheers
/Kungen
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 12:04:39 AM by Kungen »

Offline AAAAANNNTS

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Re: Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2015, 12:09:06 AM »
What if it was one Champion per zone instead (command, support, attack, defend)?  Anything pushed to a zone with a Champ already there would get bounced, things pushed to a zone without a Champ concurrently (e.g. by Fear) all get bounced.  To go along with this change, make the Champs focus on local effects rather than global ones.
>Lightning Bolt will never be in IW ;_;

Offline Nehkrimah

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Re: Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2015, 01:09:43 AM »
I like the champions myself, try to think of it as different Angelic decks instead, you could make a deck that focuses on mass angels and have Lilaria and Harahel in it, using whichever helps you the most at that time. If they abandon the defense zone because of Lilaria, you can swap in Harahel with the Champions Herald.

You can also think of some of them as sideboard material, like Kraos could be sideboarded in against FD.

The other option is to have a generic deck with 1 of each champion in, if there's something the boardstate makes desireable you can search for that one and play it.

These are just some of my thoughts in any case, and I play all factions, so I don't have a favourite as much to be disappointed to changes I guess.
 

Offline Grinnin_Gin

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Re: Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2015, 01:13:39 AM »
The champion mechanic is spot on in terms of the ideas behind it. The implementation, and curve leave a bit to be desired. I was skeptical at first, but as Teremus has said many times, its not a matter of just adjusting stats to be more efficient. If you make everything too efficient at the get go, then the faction becomes too strong and stifles room for improvement. I asked Poga in the order reveal stream when the Champion mechanic was revealed something along the lines of 'if x cards leave something to be desired, will we see them be potentially reworked?' and he responded in the affirmative.

Its not a matter of 'if they will rework cards that need to', its a matter of 'when', and that when is in the very near future.

To be quite frank however, I am a bit peeved at the tone you're taking when confronting the developers over their decision to make the champion mechanic. This isnt a matter of right, or wrong, its a matter of subjective balance, and subjective direction.

There is no 'right way' or 'wrong way' to do overseers. There are a ton of different approachs you could take to the faction and still come out with a faction thats properly balanced in comparison to where the other factions are in terms of strength.

The route they decided to take with the Champion mechanic was, in my opinion, an unorthodox one but not one that was entirely on the wrong track. Its like anything else, Magic the Gathering, Yugioh, really any card game you care to make didnt get things or mechanics neccesarily right the first time they tried them. This game is not in the business of releasing a card and then never touching it again. We see cards like Shikana, who Demands Tribute being errata'd when that card was released all the way back in core. I would not be surprised if three years from now we - still - see regular changes to cards that need a bit more adjustment.

Also, 'nerf' overseers? I dont think you understand exactly what the Champion mechanic is, or what it was meant to do. The primary issue with overseers wasn't that they were too strong. Its that the deck was too linear. I remember friend of mine put it the right way back pre-order: ''I literally have a flowchat for my turns''. Overnight after the Champion mechanic and Order release, we saw the 2-3 possible overseer decks jump to at least 6 different unique variants, with endless tech choices for each. Now what needs to happen is not a rollback of the champion mechanic, but a careful review and editing of cards that need a touch more strength, or need to see a bit of a reduction in power.

As for your complaint about not being able to use all the champions in one deck: That was the - intention - behind the mechanic. You're only meant to have a few specific champions in your deck, that are played strategicly. You're not supposed to go 'damn I cant deploy this' when you draw another champion, you're meant to use it as your plan b.

Also the Champion mechanic is exclusive to overseers only. You're reacting so much to this change its cute. Even I had a less extreme reaction at first, lol.

Offline xneosrevenge

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Re: Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2015, 02:30:16 AM »
It's good to see people discussing the Champion mechanic and the Overseers but my main objection with this topic is the fact that it is titled "Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?" when there hasn't been much discussion at all about whether or not Infinity Wars is still a collectible card game.
"We adore chaos because we love to produce order." -M. C. Escher

Offline ORISOLVE

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Re: Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2015, 02:53:14 AM »
The route they decided to take with the Champion mechanic was, in my opinion, an unorthodox one but not one that was entirely on the wrong track. Its like anything else, Magic the Gathering, Yugioh, really any card game you care to make didnt get things or mechanics neccesarily right the first time they tried them. This game is not in the business of releasing a card and then never touching it again. We see cards like Shikana, who Demands Tribute being errata'd when that card was released all the way back in core. I would not be surprised if three years from now we - still - see regular changes to cards that need a bit more adjustment.

Someone once said that it is much easier to get Lightmare to change cards that are overpowered compared to getting them to change cards that are underpowered. It took them quite a while to change Shikana and Demon of Fear. What if they are in the business of releasing a card and never touching it again? Block rotations would allow them to do so.

Infinity Wars is a premium collectible card game. Done.  :D
Where there's a will, there's a way.


Offline Kungen

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Re: Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2015, 03:01:19 AM »
Hi xneosrevenge,

I think my every reply have had input on collecting OS cards.

Ty for your thoughts Grinnin_Gin

Even if there was a smug tone to them. I think the "champion mechanic" have just tipped me over the edge I see no point in collecting(!) OS champion cards. Example:

Lets just say for argument sake Sol is the best champion(doesn't matter if it isn't true in all cases the example will work anyway). So with the new champion mechanic I can only have 1 champion in play. Drawing another champion will be very inefficient as opponent will draw a card he found useful to add to deck and he can most likely play it without having to die or waste 2 turns shuffling his champions. So I have Sol out I draw a different champion, dang waste of a draw phase waste of hand space, I already have Sol(best) out and getting him out cost me resources and 2 turn to get to attack/defense zone... I'm not about to waste more resources and another 2 turns to get this champion to were Sol is. Dang Sol died. Now I have a backup champ on hand... ahh I should have put another Sol in the deck instead of this one so I can get him out again. So I add 2 more Sol to deck as I can only have 1 champ out and if he is the best I want him(I'm not arguing him being the best just example). You say well you could have had 3 Sol in deck before the "champion mechanic", why didn't you? Cause then I could have both alongside each other and drawing Sol when already having Sol on battlefield would most likely not be the most efficient, and have a more varied deck. Well you can have a varied deck now too. Not really as I can't have both out I then want the "best" out making the other champ 9/10 times a waste of draw and hand space as maybe another card than an unplayable champ might have helped me keeping the "best" champion alive somehow. Oh but different champions are good in different situations(this is the dumbest arguement) so I am supposed to waste draw phases and hand spaces on champions I can't play hoping the "right" opportunity to have this champion replace the champion I spend 2 turns and resources on to get out. Better again to have extra "lifes" on the champion considered to synergies best/most often with the deck build idea and draw useful cards that can be played while you have the champion in play. This turn even more ridiculous when having even more champs in a deck than 2. So the "champion mechanic" is an excellent: make your "collected" "champion cursed" cards in to dust collectors.

lol spent the whole day thinking about this mechanic now and I think I'll give up on my collected OS cards. Felt like such a gut punch I don't think I'll recover in this game if it stays...

Cheers
/William
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 03:15:11 AM by Kungen »