Author Topic: Rite of Rage Abuse, Possible Solutions  (Read 2431 times)

Offline CommunistMountain

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 942
    • View Profile
Rite of Rage Abuse, Possible Solutions
« on: December 13, 2014, 01:50:47 AM »
Basically, Rite of Rage covers redirected combat damage. This means that Martyr Golem and Guard can be used to abuse this.

I have to credit my friend Podian for discovering this. We tested this with a Martyr Golem having Rite of Rage, an Unstoppable character and a lot of defenders on the other side, including Magic Siphoners with 50 Power. Of course, the Unstoppable character's Power was higher than all the defenders' Health to make this work.

What happened was that the Martyr Golem gained Power and Health over and over again, resulting in 200+ Power and instantly killing me. Of course, this probably would not happen in a real game, but the abuse can be re–enacted on a smaller, but still significant scale.

This will also work on a defender and Martyr Golem or another character with Guard, since defenders have an Unstoppable–like mechanic by default. Build up as much damage as possible, redirect it and convert it into Power and Health, profit.



The problem does not lie in Martyr Golem, Guard, Unstoppable or the defender mechanic. Rite of Rage must not cover redirected combat damage, because the potential amount of redirected damage is simply too high.

Also, the reason why Rite of Rage is so cheap is because it requires prediction, like Fiery Resolve. If you use it but no non–combat damage happens, it's a dead draw, but cheap. Redirecting combat damage requires no prediction as you are the one redirecting it, and thus becomes dirt cheap for what it does.



Solution 1: Code redirected combat damage as 'combat damage' rather than 'non–combat damage'.

Solution 2: Change the card's functionality and text to cover non–combat damage from character/artifact/location/mission abilities and ability cards only. This might cause confusion and be impractical, so I prefer the above solution.

Thoughts?

Offline Clearbeard

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 321
    • View Profile
Re: Rite of Rage Abuse, Possible Solutions
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2014, 03:37:42 AM »
Solution 1 seems like the most elegant one, and is completely fitting with other card effects like Fight!  I agree this is a potentially game-breaking exploit and should be fixed, preferably before ranked legality next week.

Offline Derakus

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Re: Rite of Rage Abuse, Possible Solutions
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2014, 09:48:09 AM »
People in Global chat came up with MORE elegant solution that all that convoluted recoding.

Make Rite of Rage to only target NON-artificials. It's easy to implement, it solves Martyr abuse, and its in line with how alot of WP cards dont work with machinery.

RoR + Guard should still work thus redirected dmg should still count, problem is with Martyr alone as other simmilar cards have restrictions - Cassial will only eat one hit before ascending, Guard only protetcts single creature.

Make Martyr illegal target for RoR  - problem solved. and if people will go as far as using things like Sinister or demonic corruption on Martyr - again they will have to wait a turn because RoR is preemptive so you cant change Golem subtype and RoR him in turn you drop him in play.
And that gives enough time to react.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2014, 09:53:52 AM by Derakus »

Offline Heaven-Canceler

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 409
  • Travelling worlds out of fascination.
    • View Profile
Re: Rite of Rage Abuse, Possible Solutions
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2014, 10:09:42 AM »
Another possible solution could be making it so only the first 2 or 3 damage sources are stopped and power the target up. That way you would have to think more carefully about when to use. Guard isn't that much of a Problem since as stated before, it can only work on 1 character. Of course you can use it multiple times per turn, but that will become costly fast.

Other accounts of mine can be found on Spacebattles and Sufficient Velocity.

Offline CommunistMountain

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 942
    • View Profile
Re: Rite of Rage Abuse, Possible Solutions
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2014, 12:31:17 PM »
RoR + Guard should still work thus redirected dmg should still count... Guard only protetcts single creature.
Guard isn't that much of a Problem since as stated before, it can only work on 1 character.
1 character, 1 turn is all one needs to gain a significant advantage via this abuse.

I don't get what you guys mean by justifying it with '1 character', please enlighten me.

Offline Heaven-Canceler

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 409
  • Travelling worlds out of fascination.
    • View Profile
Re: Rite of Rage Abuse, Possible Solutions
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2014, 12:43:38 PM »
RoR + Guard should still work thus redirected dmg should still count... Guard only protetcts single creature.
Guard isn't that much of a Problem since as stated before, it can only work on 1 character.
1 character, 1 turn is all one needs to gain a significant advantage via this abuse.

I don't get what you guys mean by justifying it with '1 character', please enlighten me.

The Problem of redirected damage is from Martyr Golem who gets everyone's damage and grows to crazy sizes as far as I understand. A single target will at most double the buff in the case of AoE damage.

For example, with Winds of Wars, that will give you a +10+10 for 3 cost instead of damage, that is if the Opponent cast the Wind.

Compare that to Support Drone + Tinkerer, this makes a 3 cost 11/11 which doesn't Need you to anticipate anything at all or risk anything, but in Exchange doesn't neutralize any damage.

And if you get the wrong Timing, everything is wasted too.

A Combo that can give you an significant Advantage if you pull it off isn't abuse, it is simply efficient use of the Tools. You could call the CTA Lucca or Sacullas Combo abuse by that logic too.

I actually think Guard + Ritual are a known Combo by the devs. It seems a very obvious Thing in hindsight.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2014, 12:49:22 PM by Heaven-Canceler »

Other accounts of mine can be found on Spacebattles and Sufficient Velocity.

Offline CubicBerserker

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 155
    • View Profile
Re: Rite of Rage Abuse, Possible Solutions
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2014, 03:24:01 PM »

The Problem of redirected damage is from Martyr Golem who gets everyone's damage and grows to crazy sizes as far as I understand. A single target will at most double the buff in the case of AoE damage.

For example, with Winds of Wars, that will give you a +10+10 for 3 cost instead of damage, that is if the Opponent cast the Wind.

Compare that to Support Drone + Tinkerer, this makes a 3 cost 11/11 which doesn't Need you to anticipate anything at all or risk anything, but in Exchange doesn't neutralize any damage.

And if you get the wrong Timing, everything is wasted too.

A Combo that can give you an significant Advantage if you pull it off isn't abuse, it is simply efficient use of the Tools. You could call the CTA Lucca or Sacullas Combo abuse by that logic too.

I actually think Guard + Ritual are a known Combo by the devs. It seems a very obvious Thing in hindsight.

I think the problem CommunistMountain is referring to here is that guard basically allows you to convert combat damage to non-combat damage.You either stick a character in defense(or an unstoppable character in assault) and not only can it not take damage for a turn, but it converts all the damage from both combat and abilities to stat buffs for another character, which could attack on the very same turn (with correct priority) for massive damage.

I can confirm that this works against the AI at least. I could plow through the entire defense line of the DoD AI and take no damage and have an 80/80 Skraar's young at the end of the turn. I took me a while to draw the needed cards since I only have one of each and no golem, but I could definitely see this become a problem if left unchecked.

A possible solution would be for redirected damage to stay the same type, that way redirected combat damage is still combat damage, and only redirected abilities would give buffs. Martyr golem might still be a problem combined with aoe damage, but if it turns out to be overpowered then the suggestion of making RoR only target artificial characters would be a good solution.

Offline Heaven-Canceler

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 409
  • Travelling worlds out of fascination.
    • View Profile
Re: Rite of Rage Abuse, Possible Solutions
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2014, 03:34:30 PM »
I think the problem CommunistMountain is referring to here is that guard basically allows you to convert combat damage to non-combat damage.You either stick a character in defense(or an unstoppable character in assault) and not only can it not take damage for a turn, but it converts all the damage from both combat and abilities to stat buffs for another character, which could attack on the very same turn (with correct priority) for massive damage.

I can confirm that this works against the AI at least. I could plow through the entire defense line of the DoD AI and take no damage and have an 80/80 Skraar's young at the end of the turn. I took me a while to draw the needed cards since I only have one of each and no golem, but I could definitely see this become a problem if left unchecked.

A possible solution would be for redirected damage to stay the same type, that way redirected combat damage is still combat damage, and only redirected abilities would give buffs. Martyr golem might still be a problem combined with aoe damage, but if it turns out to be overpowered then the suggestion of making RoR only target artificial characters would be a good solution.

Okay, that is of course a Problem, didn't know this was possible. It is basically converting combat damage into a different Kind. That should get fixed soon hopefully.

Other accounts of mine can be found on Spacebattles and Sufficient Velocity.

Offline AAAAANNNTS

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 157
    • View Profile
Re: Rite of Rage Abuse, Possible Solutions
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2014, 05:54:55 PM »
How about just make it work on non-combat damage from enemy sources?  That's what every single other damage prevention card seems to do.  I mean, it prevents Martyr Golem and the Overcharged CoV spells abuse that I love, but that change seems healthier and more along the lines of what was intended.
>Lightning Bolt will never be in IW ;_;

Offline JSlayerXero

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 577
    • View Profile
Re: Rite of Rage Abuse, Possible Solutions
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2014, 03:11:31 AM »
If you think this is exploitable... Well it is. Get this though, since redirected damage is non-combat damage, Noble Protector negates it. I just had somebody use Phalanx commander and Noble Protector to literally make that line of defense invincible to anything but straight death abilities. If this works with Martyr Golem, suddenly invincibility.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 03:26:29 AM by JSlayerXero »
Despite preferring to go by Xero, it's not frequently the part of my name people latch on to. Oh well. I deal with it.

Offline DrayGon777

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2107
  • Friendly Neighborhood Dragon
    • View Profile
Re: Rite of Rage Abuse, Possible Solutions
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2014, 03:38:48 AM »
Aw man! Warpath gets a nice card and it's revealed to be broken. What's more disturbing, though, is how Noble Protector can be abused. I think the best solution, in this case, is to make redirected combat damage still equal combat damage. Any other fix won't quite deal with all the different interactions. :(
Just so you guys know, if you're ever vs WWK, just start putting out random numbers and mathematical symbols, he will surrender.

Offline AAAAANNNTS

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 157
    • View Profile
Re: Rite of Rage Abuse, Possible Solutions
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2014, 05:08:46 AM »
Aw man! Warpath gets a nice card and it's revealed to be broken. What's more disturbing, though, is how Noble Protector can be abused. I think the best solution, in this case, is to make redirected combat damage still equal combat damage. Any other fix won't quite deal with all the different interactions. :(

Enemy sources.  All these interactions are when damage is filtered through your own units' redirection triggers.
>Lightning Bolt will never be in IW ;_;

Offline Heaven-Canceler

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 409
  • Travelling worlds out of fascination.
    • View Profile
Re: Rite of Rage Abuse, Possible Solutions
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2014, 09:45:39 AM »
Enemy sources.  All these interactions are when damage is filtered through your own units' redirection triggers.

But then no double power buff against AoE damage :( which I feel is at least partially the Point of this. Meh, the Card will probably lose much of its power this way since most single target damage attacks are very hard to anticipate. Maybe if you Combo with FD and have stuff with no death effects in Play.

Other accounts of mine can be found on Spacebattles and Sufficient Velocity.

Offline CubicBerserker

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 155
    • View Profile
Re: Rite of Rage Abuse, Possible Solutions
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2014, 09:19:17 PM »
How about just make it work on non-combat damage from enemy sources?  That's what every single other damage prevention card seems to do.  I mean, it prevents Martyr Golem and the Overcharged CoV spells abuse that I love, but that change seems healthier and more along the lines of what was intended.

As far as I know, noble protector is the only card that only works on damage dealt by your opponent. Other cards like the terror moose don't care. I feel like both Rite of Rage and Terror Moose would lose much of their value if you couldn't combo them with for example Winds of War. They already don't combo with Fight!, which deals combat damage.

The reason Noble Protector only defends against enemy abilities is likely because he protects ALL characters instead of just one. The devs probably thought (with good reason) that a 2-cost character shouldn't allow you to use Yuanshi's Wrath or Winds of War without any drawback. For cards that only affect a single character these would be nice combos, but far from broken. They practically need to work with your own abilities since otherwise their value is entirely dependent on what your opponent is doing.

And thanks to JSlayerXero we now know that apparently, Noble Protector considers such redirected combat damage to be dealt by an opponent anyway. So this suggestion won't really fix the problem.

It doesn't make much sense for redirected combat damage to be considered non-combat damage. It doubt this is intended.

Considering that Martyr Golem is factionless (though still a legendary) and both noble protector and rite of rage are single purity, the potential for abuse is quite scary. Let's just hope it gets fixed soon.

Offline JSlayerXero

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 577
    • View Profile
Re: Rite of Rage Abuse, Possible Solutions
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2014, 11:17:15 PM »
It might just be Phalanx Commander that has that issues with not being considered your own redirection. Martyr Golem still seems to take damage. I don't think that was Phalanx Commander just negating my attacks... If it was then I am going to be really disappointed in myself for saying it did. However, I can definitely confirm redirected damage counts as not being combat damage for Rite of Rage. Noble Protector definitely doesn't care about your own abilities. After some infiltrating, it doesn't even care about Fight, though Rite of Rage does. Whether this is because of priority order or something, Rite of Rage was tested as not taking priority over Noble Protector when it comes to abilities, though not combat damage.

I would test Phalanx Commander but I don't actually have that card. If somebody else can properly confirm or deny that previous statement of mine I'd love to hear it.
Despite preferring to go by Xero, it's not frequently the part of my name people latch on to. Oh well. I deal with it.