Author Topic: Infested Hulker  (Read 1998 times)

Offline Cryzzli

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Infested Hulker
« on: September 16, 2014, 11:35:18 PM »
Has infested hulker always not been a beast? I swore i used him before in a 2wp/1soa deck and he got bonuses from pack leader. As he is now he just feels slow and underwhelming for his cost.

Offline Clearbeard

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Re: Infested Hulker
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2014, 02:11:25 AM »
I'm not sure about always, but he can really be a powerful card if you build your deck around him.  Lots of other small creatures, including breeders or overwhelming dead, and you could easily get a 24/26 or better creature for 8.  Slow, yes, he's a late game card.  But not underwhelming especially with unstoppable in faction.

Offline Cryzzli

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Re: Infested Hulker
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2014, 02:54:11 AM »
Okay maybe not underwhelming, but he definitly is slow. It just makes me curious why this guy, who has a full purity of WP isnt a undead beast, while all the other sleepers cards that have any likeness to warpath are all undead beast.

Edit:This is coming from 2wp/1soa standpoint, and i think he just feels out of place in that deck because your left with the option of basically dropping a regular hulker who is a 10/11 with packleader out and a automatic 6 enrage. I just think hulker should be a beast, he fits the part.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 03:07:40 AM by Cryzzli »

Offline Abyss

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Re: Infested Hulker
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2014, 06:29:07 AM »
I know it's been this way for a long time, at least before Ascension. And I agree, it's total bull that he's not a Beast - I love Warpath/Sleepers, and I don't think there's any reason for him not to receive the benefits of being a Beast. I'd say they may have originally been concerned about them being overpowered if they got the subtype, but they obviously aren't, so I'd like to see them get it.

Offline CommunistMountain

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Re: Infested Hulker
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2014, 11:25:49 AM »
Contrary to what the OP thinks, I think of Infested Hulker as an extraordinarily powerful card, not only because of the potentially powerful Enrage, but also its Infect being highly efficient when used along monstrous stats from Enrage.

I'm all for adding a Beast subtype, but regardless whether it gets added or not, devs, PLEASE nerf its Enrage.

Offline Cryzzli

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Re: Infested Hulker
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2014, 10:02:39 PM »
Contrary to what the OP thinks, I think of Infested Hulker as an extraordinarily powerful card, not only because of the potentially powerful Enrage, but also its Infect being highly efficient when used along monstrous stats from Enrage.

I'm all for adding a Beast subtype, but regardless whether it gets added or not, devs, PLEASE nerf its Enrage.
Wow if you think this guy needs a nerf, i wonder what you think of skraar and his crew. Like someone else said, to use this guy you basically have to build the whole deck around getting creatures into the graveyard, and then after all that buildup and 8 resource spent, it could end up just getting deathrayed, etc. This card may be situationally very powerful, but I dont think hes worthy of the nerfbat at all.

Offline ceces

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Re: Infested Hulker
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2014, 02:07:24 AM »
this guys enrage is worse then his brother, infested knight, because you can see it coming a mile away <.<

I know infested knight doesn't have enrage, but the grave's interaction from infested knight's is much more playable

Offline Mafia_Puppet

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Re: Infested Hulker
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2014, 05:24:50 AM »
Yeah, this fatty could enrage into a 50/50 and I wouldn't call for a nerf. Any fatty >15 hp or so is just going to get a kill card to the nuts. If you want to nerf a fatty (and I don't see a need atm), there is

gravefetched cyberdragons
gravefetched m02
landstead
cyborg FD

that are all much more unfun to play against than this card, if I ever see it anyway.

Offline CommunistMountain

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Re: Infested Hulker
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2014, 01:35:47 PM »
Let's take a look at Infested Hulker's true value:

2 different factions for Purities warrants -1 Resource Value, based on Infest, as it is essentially a 3 Cost Death Ray fused with a 2 Cost Risen of Avarrach, but still costs 4.

8/10 with the Beast Subtype deserves a 3 Resource Value, as this is compared to One of Many, which is exactly the same save 1 less Health. This also assumes that the Beast Subtype will be added.

The Undead Subtype has a 0.25 Resource Value. Bloodthirsty Dead, the closest to Undead vanilla, can either be a 4/4 or a 8/8 depending on the situation, is averaged to be a 6/6, and thus when compared to Knight of the Flame Dawn's 7/7, the Undead Subtype is worth 1/1. Based on various 1 Cost character cards, 1 Resource =4/4 (only applies for characters and character traits, abilities use a different calculation), and therefore the Undead Subtype is 0.25 Resources.

Infect has a variable Resource Value due to its effectiveness dependent on how good the character's stats are. Comparing Infectious Zombie with Knight of the Flame Dawn, it's Infect is worth 0.25 Resources, as 7/7 -5/5 -Undead Subtype. Since Infectious Zombie’s 5/5 is worth 1.25 Resources, we can conclude that Infect has a Resource Value equivalent to a fifth of the character’s Stat Value. The default stats of Infested Hulker is worth 2.25 (rounded up) and would derive a 0.45 Infect Resource Value.

Finally, we are left with Enrage X. Based on the above, Infested Hulker has a 2.7 Resource Value when played, and thus needs to derive an additional 1.3 Resource Value when Enraged on top of Enrage’s cost, or +5.2/+5.2. Based on Enraged Hulker’s Enrage, 1 Resource =+2/+2, and therefore Enrage X’s cost is equalised by +8/+8, totalling up to +13.2/+13.2. Keeping in mind Infect’s additional 20% value increase, +13.2/+13.2 divided by 120% = +11/+11 (exact value).

TL;DR, It takes 11 characters in the Grave to bring Infested Hulker up to full Resource utilisation. In a build centred around dying, this is a piece of cake, and things start to get nasty when you are able to double that quantity, which is why I’m asking for a nerf. The potential is too high.

Wow if you think this guy needs a nerf, i wonder what you think of skraar and his crew. Like someone else said, to use this guy you basically have to build the whole deck around getting creatures into the graveyard, and then after all that buildup and 8 resource spent, it could end up just getting deathrayed, etc. This card may be situationally very powerful, but I dont think hes worthy of the nerfbat at all.
My thoughts of Skraar 'and his crew' has nothing to do with this, please stay on topic.

Firstly, when playing Sleepers, you don't actually have to try very hard to get your characters into the Grave, do you? In fact, it is a strength rather than a weakness, so I don't know why building such a deck is a bad thing for you.

Secondly, the potential of being killed by a Death Ray, or any other removal ability is not a legit excuse. It's not only those characters which cannot be killed by non–damage sources which need nerfing, you know.

Also, the key is to play smart in order to minimise losses. The Support Zone is our friend, and I use it to the fullest extent in order to avoid Battlefield–only abilities.

this guys enrage is worse then his brother, infested knight, because you can see it coming a mile away <.<

I know infested knight doesn't have enrage, but the grave's interaction from infested knight's is much more playable
Yeah, he reaches full Resource utilisation with 7 characters in Grave, and has Charge, but 'A mile away'? Come on, it only takes 1 turn more to attack. However, if you were thinking of putting it in Command, then yes, putting it in Command is ridiculous.

Yeah, this fatty could enrage into a 50/50 and I wouldn't call for a nerf. Any fatty >15 hp or so is just going to get a kill card to the nuts. If you want to nerf a fatty (and I don't see a need atm), there is

gravefetched cyberdragons
gravefetched m02
landstead
cyborg FD

that are all much more unfun to play against than this card, if I ever see it anyway.
Firstly, my plea for a nerf has nothing to do with my other opinions of the cards you mentioned.

Secondly, come on, this line of reasoning for balance is ridiculous. You mean, Pack Leader is on equal standings as One of Many because more guns are pointed at him? More importantly, just how many control abilities would you have, unless you're playing Verore or Exiles?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 02:00:23 PM by CommunistMountain »

Offline ceces

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Re: Infested Hulker
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2014, 02:06:23 PM »
infested knight is also in a faction with small creatures that die easily(mostly speak for FD. WP has big beefy creatures that don't want to die) and not only that, but have access to tome of the dead where they can charge him out in a clean board. infested hulker can't do that really, because he takes a turn to play and a turn to enrage(if you want to use him that turn at least for full value) sure you can stall a turn and such, but then you are just making him even slower then he is. I've built decks around both of these, and infested knight is much easier to use. I never had an issue with hulker when playing/facing him. I think he's fine the way he is :P

Offline Knive8s9704

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Re: Infested Hulker
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2014, 03:32:29 PM »
First of all, using these resource valuation to justify a card's necessity for nerf is a bit intangible, mostly due to a long list of assumptions. While a good way to empirically measure card balance in a set, the actual utility of each card cannot be determine by such measures. Infected Hulker is by no means a weak card but very specialized for certain situations and deck type. Because of this niche, you don't see it very often and decks centered around it aren't particularly that effective especially with the release of overseers. With mill/stall-control and oblivion etc. brining more attention of the importance of grave rob/purify, I see this card's effectiveness diminish as the meta develops. Given the situation and meta state of IW, this card at the moment warrants no nerf.

Offline MrFahrenheit

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Re: Infested Hulker
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2014, 04:23:27 PM »
I've played with him a lot and pretty much the only times I've ever really gotten value out of his enrage is if I've gotten a few overwhelming dead out. If you plan on using his enrage and having it be worth the resources he is very slow. So slow that If you are alive at that point you've probably either already pretty much won or are facing something with enough control to deal with him or the opponent has some giant flying creature too big for your damage based removal.

Offline Mafia_Puppet

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Re: Infested Hulker
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2014, 10:03:25 PM »
When I see him run to an infuriating effectiveness in ranked, then any of your theory crafting will have meaning. Until that time, idc.

Offline Cryzzli

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Re: Infested Hulker
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2014, 11:46:25 PM »
Alright, well judging by the replies and theorycrafting, Infested Hulker wouldn't gain opness from having the subtype beast and deserves to join his beast brothers!

Offline Clearbeard

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Re: Infested Hulker
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2014, 02:11:07 AM »
Alright, well judging by the replies and theorycrafting, Infested Hulker wouldn't gain opness from having the subtype beast and deserves to join his beast brothers!

I'll drink to that.