Author Topic: Exiles just got a little bit more interesting  (Read 2042 times)

Offline JSlayerXero

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Exiles just got a little bit more interesting
« on: August 06, 2014, 07:28:04 PM »
Not sure that this is a bug or not, but oh man, this is interesting. So, since cards now stay in your hand until their effects resolve, you can now end up discarding a card you're going to use when using the Exiles and their bizarre random discard mechanic. The thing is, the card still goes off. Say I use Ritual master with Recycle being the one card in my hand. Ritual master is set to go off first, and he does, ditching Recycle. Recycle then activates and does its effect, putting a card back into my deck and drawing one for me. This also means that if it's an ability with Exile, you will not only use the card up this turn, but if it has Exile, you can use it again next turn by paying the Exile cost. This means that Reckless Abandon can be used with any ability card to effectively use it twice and all normally Exile-able cards can be used twice in-a-row when discarded other ways if the RNG cooperates. Yes, I know... RNG. But still. Just remember, you have to have it get discarded before it would normally activate.

Remember though, this is probably a bug. Would be fun to pull off two uses of Descension with only one card though, or to use Spontaneous Combustion two turns in-a-row and wreck the playing field if a bit randomly.
Despite preferring to go by Xero, it's not frequently the part of my name people latch on to. Oh well. I deal with it.

Offline Pjoelj

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Re: Exiles just got a little bit more interesting
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2014, 08:46:21 PM »
Yeah, pretty sure this is a bug.

Really interesting find, though.
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Offline Nyxire

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Re: Exiles just got a little bit more interesting
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2014, 06:44:23 AM »
This also means reckless abandon can exile itself. It's happened to me a few times, and is slightly less fun. ;_;

Offline Painkiller95

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Re: Exiles just got a little bit more interesting
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2014, 10:22:37 PM »
Well if reckless abbandon discard itself you can replay it without paying. It just delays it's effect.

Offline Mafia_Puppet

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Re: Exiles just got a little bit more interesting
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2014, 03:55:13 AM »
This is a bug. I've been aware of it for a while. You can purify a discarded card out of the game and they will still play it from the void for exile cost at the start of their turn. Exploit it while it lasts.

Vertu Honagan

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Re: Exiles just got a little bit more interesting
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2014, 03:20:17 PM »
This is a bug. I've been aware of it for a while. You can purify a discarded card out of the game and they will still play it from the void for exile cost at the start of their turn. Exploit it while it lasts.

That's because it has Exile. If that discarded card didn't have Exile then it would be purified. Otherwise the Exile cost overrides the Purify. Just like if you were to purify a Recurring Nightmare that the opponent replayed from the graveyard. Even though you used Purify on it, they still get Recurring Nightmare back from the graveyard if they replayed it.

Offline Screamindiz

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Re: Exiles just got a little bit more interesting
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2014, 03:26:43 PM »
Would depend on priority I suppose.

Offline Knive8s9704

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Re: Exiles just got a little bit more interesting
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2014, 07:45:08 PM »
Would depend on priority I suppose.

Should depend on purity but god knows how it actually works. Maybe LM would clarify...nah, I like the dark.

Offline kingmobmaskreplica

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Re: Exiles just got a little bit more interesting
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2014, 08:08:39 PM »
In the case of the recurring nightmare it isn't to do with priority since nightmare is being deployed and purify is an ability. The Nightmare is played in deployment resolution, then purify resolves in ability phase and purify fizzles. This could perhaps be clearer in the wording of nightmare.

Exile is a different matter though.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2014, 08:13:05 PM by kingmobmaskreplica »

Vertu Honagan

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Re: Exiles just got a little bit more interesting
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2014, 08:14:15 PM »
In the case of the recurring nightmare it isn't to do with priority since nightmare is being deployed and purify is an ability. The Nightmare is played in deployment resolution, then purify resolves in ability phase and purify fizzles. This could perhaps be clearer in the wording of nightmare.

Exile is a different matter though.

Not really, Exile is just like deployment except it takes place prior to deploying any creatures from your hand.

Offline kingmobmaskreplica

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Re: Exiles just got a little bit more interesting
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2014, 09:20:46 PM »
Yes that is how it is implemented for characters but it is a different matter for abilities. It seems more akin to shikana who demands tribute or bomb bot's effects, given that they occur at the start of the turn. Really it is somewhere inbetween because of the resolution.

The Exile cost gets paid at the start of the turn but an exiled ability resolves in the ability phase.
In the meantime it is still in your graveyard.
If it is then purified with priority the card shouldn't exist to be played.
If it is supposed to be played anyway then it shouldn't be in the graveyard after you pay the exile cost.
This would make more sense.
At the minute I think it dodges priority with regards to being in the graveyard but doesn't for resolution of the ability i.e. if the target of descension is killed it doesn't create a dragon.

Maybe for abilities it should be:

Pay exile cost at start of turn - card is removed from graveyard as part of start of turn effect to greyed out hand area thing
Card is then played at start of your ability phase as a normal ability.
This would avoid the purify thing.

It is still a problematic area though. What if a creature came into play on opponents priority and removed a recurring nightmare from the graveyard which you had played from there. Would it still come into play? Should it?

I have confused my brain with this stuff  :o

Offline Clearbeard

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Re: Exiles just got a little bit more interesting
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2014, 01:50:28 AM »
If you want to get even more confused, try undoing actions taken by paying exile costs.  From what I can tell, the game actually brings cards you're paying exile costs to play back into your hand and then plays them for their lower cost.  When you undo the action, the card stays in your hand (sometimes, at least) and you then have the dubious privilege of paying full price if you want to play it after all.  Regardless, the bringing exiled cards back to your hand to play them rather than actually playing them from your graveyard is why they're not present anymore when Purify resolves.

Offline Knive8s9704

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Re: Exiles just got a little bit more interesting
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2014, 01:31:19 PM »
If you want to get even more confused, try undoing actions taken by paying exile costs.  From what I can tell, the game actually brings cards you're paying exile costs to play back into your hand and then plays them for their lower cost.  When you undo the action, the card stays in your hand (sometimes, at least) and you then have the dubious privilege of paying full price if you want to play it after all.  Regardless, the bringing exiled cards back to your hand to play them rather than actually playing them from your graveyard is why they're not present anymore when Purify resolves.
I'm not certain about the going back into your hand situation. It could be remnant bug that persisted sometimes ago. I think exile abilities resolve the same way as heaven's assistance. Even after calamity wiping field, heaven's assistance will still spawn tokens based on enemy forces that turn. The same could be said for exile effects. When you pay the cost, the effect activates. Even if you purify/grave rob whatever, the coding takes exile into effect and will bring that exact card to the support zone. 

Offline Mafia_Puppet

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Re: Exiles just got a little bit more interesting
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2014, 03:12:31 PM »
Exile triggers at the beginning of your turn. If the card was purified out of game the last turn, you can still play it on your next turn. That is a bug; cards that are removed from game shouldn't be playable from the void.

Any other interpretation of "removed from game" implies that words have lost all meaning. If I can play card effects that have been removed from game, then I should be able to play other card effects that are not within the game. Like Supreme Verdict.

Further, if you remove Herald of Dawn from the game, that player no longer gains haste from the effect in the following turn. Why is exile any more valid an ability to play from the void than Herald? That one takes effect and the other does not presents a contradiction that you're going to need to explain.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 03:18:09 PM by Mafia_Puppet »

Offline Knive8s9704

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Re: Exiles just got a little bit more interesting
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2014, 06:03:46 PM »
Exile triggers at the beginning of your turn. If the card was purified out of game the last turn, you can still play it on your next turn. That is a bug; cards that are removed from game shouldn't be playable from the void.

Any other interpretation of "removed from game" implies that words have lost all meaning. If I can play card effects that have been removed from game, then I should be able to play other card effects that are not within the game. Like Supreme Verdict.

Further, if you remove Herald of Dawn from the game, that player no longer gains haste from the effect in the following turn. Why is exile any more valid an ability to play from the void than Herald? That one takes effect and the other does not presents a contradiction that you're going to need to explain.

I'm not arguing whether the way exile effect work is either right or wrong. I just saying from the perspective of the coding. Just like heaven's assistance, it doesn't "trigger" the moment that the effect activates but rather as soon as the card was used. As soon as heaven's assistance is used, it calculates how many enemies are on the field so even when you board wipe next turn it still spawn tokens. Same type of coding error could be the issue here. As soon as you decided to utilize the exile effect, the card was going to return to ur side no matter priority of turn as the effect already took place the moment you used it rather than the resolution phase.

Additionally, removing herald of dawn shouldn't nullify his effect as per his text. Actually, how would you even remove herald of dawn lol? He comes out turn X...you can't target him or remove him from play, next turn...the first creature gets charge.