Author Topic: Attack Ability vs. Buff Ability  (Read 2691 times)

Offline Agrivane

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Attack Ability vs. Buff Ability
« on: April 13, 2014, 11:59:52 PM »

I started playing Sleepers and noticed something I don't really understand as a game mechanic (much like I don't get why temporal anomalies reset characters), if you have a 2/2 character such as those produced by Overwhelming Dead buffed to 3/3 by Plaguebearer and an opponent plays Heat Wave, all the 3/3 characters are destroyed instead of being reduced to 2/1.  This seems odd as the attack is affecting all the characters at the same time, rather than removing Plaguebearer first and then hitting the rest.

 

Offline Symphony

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Re: Attack Ability vs. Buff Ability
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2014, 12:17:09 AM »
It's the same thing with Pack Leaders. My guess is that the buffed health is calculated last, as in they're the last health points the character has.
So what happens is, the heatwave deals 2 damage to everything, reducing the tokens to 3/1, with the remaining health being provided by the bearer. When it dies, they all go together.

Offline Agrivane

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Re: Attack Ability vs. Buff Ability
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2014, 12:43:34 AM »
Sure, but as the bearer is only 2/2 it's destroyed in the same instant that the others are 3/3.   It's that instantaneous / simultaneous bit that vexes me.   

Offline valzyf

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Re: Attack Ability vs. Buff Ability
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2014, 12:56:23 AM »
It IS destroyed at the same time, but the Heat Wave is doing damage to their base/unbuffed health. The only reason they WOULD still have 1 health is because of the Plaguebearer, but if it dies they lose 1/1 and are left at 0 health, so they die. The Plaguebearer buff is only temporary for as long as it is on the field, the same as Pack Leaders.

Idk, I know how and why it works, but I don't know if I really explain it well.

As for Anomaly resetting characters, it's because they are completely removed. They don't exist for that turn. There is no creature to HAVE buffs. Then when it comes back at the end of the turn it's creating a new base creature. It's a clone that is born and has to grow up on it's own. It's not fully grown with all the buffs when it gets put back.

Offline Agrivane

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Re: Attack Ability vs. Buff Ability
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2014, 01:14:13 AM »
Right, and neither of those things is logical, it's just how it's coded now. 

Offline Symphony

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Re: Attack Ability vs. Buff Ability
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2014, 01:22:42 AM »
The buff part does make sense. Imagine the following situation: You have a 2/2 zombie token out with a plaguebearer on support (making him a 3/3). Your opponent proceeds to use a Flame Dawn Commando and targets the token, making him a 3/1. The only thing keeping him alive is the bearer's buff.
If it were to happen like you imagine, if the opponent proceeded to remove the bearer with something else (say he has 2 commandos or a lightning blast), your token would go back to a 2/1, meaning the bearer's hp buff wasn't temporary.

Offline DefenestratedCow

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Re: Attack Ability vs. Buff Ability
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2014, 01:27:58 AM »
I think it's very logical, unless you want the bonus health to count as a buffer, like Bloodthirst.  Otherwise, that interaction makes perfect sense. 
EDIT: Also, what Symphony said.

Offline TimetoSplit

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Re: Attack Ability vs. Buff Ability
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2014, 09:29:49 PM »
We need a 10/0 beast that costs 2.  That way, you need Packleaders or it dies instantly!

Offline Agrivane

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Re: Attack Ability vs. Buff Ability
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2014, 10:13:36 PM »
I guess I'm uncomfortable with buffs being LIFO and damage calculation being FIFO. 

Offline DefenestratedCow

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Re: Attack Ability vs. Buff Ability
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2014, 10:39:45 PM »
Think about it this way: If the plaguebearer dies first, then they would be 2/2s and would die to a later heat wave.  If the heat wave comes first, but the plaguebearer survives (genesis buffs or something) then you have 5 3/1s.  Then, if the plaguebearer was killed by another source, the undead would die due to losing their last 1 health.  Are you saying that because they happen at the same time, something special should happen?

Offline DrayGon777

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Re: Attack Ability vs. Buff Ability
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2014, 03:23:10 AM »
What he's saying is that he feels it should be like Hear... that other card game where if you lose your buff, your maximum drops and not your current (unless your current was at maximum, or the current is higher than the new maximum).
Just so you guys know, if you're ever vs WWK, just start putting out random numbers and mathematical symbols, he will surrender.

Offline Agrivane

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Re: Attack Ability vs. Buff Ability
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2014, 04:20:40 AM »
Yes, sort of.  I'm thinking towards area spells and such being enhanced with duration and direction.   Some are instantaneous and affect all characters in a zone at the same time equally, some could be directional, starting at the right or the left and applying a decreasing or increasing effect on each character in the row, or they could affect the strongest or weakest characters first.   The only ability with "splash damage" that I can think of at the moment is Zom-B-Gone, but there may be others and more in the future. 

But yes, in the case of a 2/2 Plague bearer and a row of undead buffed by it to 3/3 being hit by Heat Wave which affects all characters independent of location, the undead should be hit for two damage at the same time as the plague bearer reducing them to 3/1, then as that action resolves and plague bearer is destroyed they would loose the buff and be 2/1.   Like if health was a stack, you have to remove the top of the stack first. 


Offline valzyf

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Re: Attack Ability vs. Buff Ability
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2014, 04:28:11 AM »
But Plaguebearer is just a TEMPORARY buff that is tied to the Plaguebearer being on the field. It only lasts while it is alive.

It's not a a separate, permanent buff, like Lucca. If Lucca buffed creatures to be 3/3 (just numbers for example, I know it's more than that) and then she was killed with the Heat Wave (again, just for the example) the creatures would stay alive at 3/1 because her buff is not tied to her being alive on the field. It happens when she comes into play and then stays whether she dies or not.

It's two separate types of interaction. They are designed differently and work differently, but that doesn't mean they don't make sense.

Offline Agrivane

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Re: Attack Ability vs. Buff Ability
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2014, 05:30:02 AM »
But Plaguebearer is just a TEMPORARY buff that is tied to the Plaguebearer being on the field. It only lasts while it is alive.

That is part of my argument, the Plaguebearer isn't being killed before the others but at the same time.   

Offline valzyf

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Re: Attack Ability vs. Buff Ability
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2014, 06:36:59 AM »
It doesn't MATTER. He dies, they lose the buff, they die. End of story. Or I guess to put it a different way, he dies first because he only has 2 health, they are left as 3/1, but as soon as he leaves the field, which is immediately, they lose the 1/1 and die because they have 0 health.

The same thing happens with Pack leader. If WP creatures are left with three of less health, and aren't otherwise healed or buffed, you don't even have to KILL the Pack Leader, just remove it from a combat zone, and they lose the 3/3 and die.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 06:40:53 AM by valzyf »