Author Topic: Secluded Constructor  (Read 3014 times)

Offline Kilroy512

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Secluded Constructor
« on: August 03, 2013, 05:29:06 AM »
I currently feel as though, for how pivotal it is to the success of any Genesis deck currently, it is very easy to get rid of since it only has 3 life and there is a lot of spot removal that can go after it. (namely Fight! and Assassinate) I believe that Fight! is already being looked at and Assassinate is a serious investment so I have no qualms with those being able to take out an important target like this, on the other hand, ping damage is a serious issue here. With only 3 life, it is very easy to pick off with a few chump pings common to PoV. I feel as though a few changes could be made to make the card more focused and to help it stay on the field long enough to give you the chance to protect it. So, without further adoo, here are some changes I would suggest:

1) Increase the resource cost to 3.
This makes it less of a no brainer and makes losing the card that much more troublesome. This is intended to keep the card balanced with the following buffs.

2) Increase life total to 5.
This is aimed toward allowing it to stay on the field at least long enough to buff itself so chip damage can't block it out. Genesis decks struggle without this unit and since you can only have 4 in your deck and with the current amount of spot removal it's very easy to be shut down.

3) (Optional) Some sort of activate-able temporary spell immunity to allow you to thwart predicted attempts at the cost of some resources for the turn. Something like "Pay 2: this creature cannot be the target of spells until end of turn." It would only work on turns where you have priority, but would give it an option for dealing with spot removal.

An alternative to these changes would be to just add other ways for Genesis to do its business, perhaps a spell immune high end creature that can eat an artificial creature each turn or something. (Ex: 8 cost, power/toughness 6/6. This character cannot be the target of spells. You may sacrifice an artificial character once per turn to have the character gain power and toughness equal to the sacrificed characters stats +2) This would give them a late game option and serve a similar purpose.
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Offline marksteele

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Re: Secluded Constructor
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2013, 06:15:58 AM »
I currently feel as though, for how pivotal it is to the success of any Genesis deck currently, it is very easy to get rid of since it only has 3 life and there is a lot of spot removal that can go after it. (namely Fight! and Assassinate) I believe that Fight! is already being looked at and Assassinate is a serious investment so I have no qualms with those being able to take out an important target like this, on the other hand, ping damage is a serious issue here. With only 3 life, it is very easy to pick off with a few chump pings common to PoV. I feel as though a few changes could be made to make the card more focused and to help it stay on the field long enough to give you the chance to protect it. So, without further adoo, here are some changes I would suggest:

1) Increase the resource cost to 3.
This makes it less of a no brainer and makes losing the card that much more troublesome. This is intended to keep the card balanced with the following buffs.

2) Increase life total to 5.
This is aimed toward allowing it to stay on the field at least long enough to buff itself so chip damage can't block it out. Genesis decks struggle without this unit and since you can only have 4 in your deck and with the current amount of spot removal it's very easy to be shut down.

3) (Optional) Some sort of activate-able temporary spell immunity to allow you to thwart predicted attempts at the cost of some resources for the turn. Something like "Pay 2: this creature cannot be the target of spells until end of turn." It would only work on turns where you have priority, but would give it an option for dealing with spot removal.

An alternative to these changes would be to just add other ways for Genesis to do its business, perhaps a spell immune high end creature that can eat an artificial creature each turn or something. (Ex: 8 cost, power/toughness 6/6. This character cannot be the target of spells. You may sacrifice an artificial character once per turn to have the character gain power and toughness equal to the sacrificed characters stats +2) This would give them a late game option and serve a similar purpose.

mmmm I COULD see something like that high-end creature your talking about but it would have to have a crazy high resource cost, like 12 or something.

Offline Kilroy512

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Re: Secluded Constructor
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2013, 06:36:20 AM »
A turn 8 drop for a creature that can be chump blocked reliably seems fair in and of itself. It does not have unstoppable and its only real feature is that it cannot be spot removed. It cannot be given flying since it cannot be targeted by spells so I see no need for it to cost 12 resources. 8-10 should more than suffice.

Also you have to take into account that it does secluded constructors job MUCH slower. It cannot nom a huge amount of creatures per turn so if you made it 12 cost it would be very lack luster by comparison to the others. The only thing this creature brings to the table is some late game staying power that is currently lacked by Genesis... at least as long as spot removal is so prominent.
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Offline marksteele

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Re: Secluded Constructor
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2013, 07:14:04 AM »
honestly it sounds like you've gotten hit too often by spot removals and are mad. It happens to all of us, trust me, I don't like loosing my buffed cards anymore than you do.

Offline Zinqf

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Re: Secluded Constructor
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2013, 07:41:53 AM »
Or give it untouchable. It wouldn't be able to buff itself, but that's ok as the tradeoff is great. Cards such as Fight! wouldn't guarantee an early kill. Direct damage hits would also not be an option. It could be wiped out by global AoE, but that's about it in terms of the commander slot.

But the problem with those changes is that the secluded constructor would be even more relied upon. I'd rather the solution be to detach the level of dependence that SC brings by making the rest of the faction stronger. This is looking more promising as the RISE release nears completion. Even though its cutting it close.
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Offline Kilroy512

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Re: Secluded Constructor
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2013, 08:04:08 AM »
I actually have yet to run into many decks that run heavy spot removal but I do recognize that the faction has no real answer to it and is particularly vulnerable to it when compared with other factions.
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Offline moominpeter

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Re: Secluded Constructor
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2013, 01:06:27 PM »
I actually have yet to run into many decks that run heavy spot removal but I do recognize that the faction has no real answer to it and is particularly vulnerable to it when compared with other factions.
Angelify
Spread your buffs out
Play with extra SC in your deck
Right now SC is very strong and is a component in some of the best decks in the game. It is also very easy to handle with the right cards, though. I play with SC a LOT and I think it is overall fine. I also think Zinqf is right that the only real problem is that GI has nothing else going for it once SC dies. Make GI a more complete faction and that problem disappears.

Offline Hitori

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Re: Secluded Constructor
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2013, 04:18:07 PM »
Kilroy, we all love our Secluded Constructors, but they are strong - strong and fragile at the same time.
They must remain so to keep their insane buffing capabilities.

I do take issue with Fight, as I feel it is too useful of a card for what it is, but we put that aside in this discussion as per your request.

SC is an amazing card, buffing it is not the solution.
You can run up to 6 if you REALLY want to, with 3 being in the command zone (still easily wiped by global-AOE but it is more reliable).

You can also build decks that aren't that reliant on SC, it's not as easy to do without the future cards that RISE brings, but the preview Teremus made has already shown us some very nice combos that do not require SC for Genesis to be successful.

Anyway, they must be easily killed in order to be this powerful, and if played well you can always have a 2nd Constructor in hand and buff her before your enemy can react.
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Offline Hitori

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Re: Secluded Constructor
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2013, 04:19:50 PM »
I can only recommend reading the 'Genesis' Deck Building discussion I opened on that sub-forum.
It has no insights by me, but some good people showed me the light of Genesis :)
I conceive that a great part of the miseries of mankind are brought upon them by false estimates they have made of the value of things.


Offline Erlaya

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Re: Secluded Constructor
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2013, 05:06:37 PM »
A decent change to Fight might be that the caster takes damage equal to the defender's defense instead of dealing damage to eachother.  This would make hitting SC deal 3 damage instead of 0!  Not an easy choice anymore

Offline Tyonidas

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Re: Secluded Constructor
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2013, 05:09:03 PM »
Or we could just put an exhaust onto Secluded Constructor...just saying.

Offline Third

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Re: Secluded Constructor
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2013, 05:13:25 PM »
Or we could just put an exhaust onto Secluded Constructor...just saying.

+1

Offline WWKnight

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Re: Secluded Constructor
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2013, 06:05:56 PM »
THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN!

God, you are so stupid Tyonidas.  Don't you know anything?  That would cripple Genesis.  If that change happens, I will run around Gencon naked and film it and upload it to Youtube!
I'm a pretty big deal around here.

Feel privileged.

Offline Tyonidas

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Re: Secluded Constructor
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2013, 06:10:18 PM »
No problem, Fida and I will be able to record it so you can get a couple different angled shots.   :D

Offline Kilroy512

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Re: Secluded Constructor
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2013, 06:17:11 PM »
I actually have yet to run into many decks that run heavy spot removal but I do recognize that the faction has no real answer to it and is particularly vulnerable to it when compared with other factions.
Angelify
Spread your buffs out
Play with extra SC in your deck
Right now SC is very strong and is a component in some of the best decks in the game. It is also very easy to handle with the right cards, though. I play with SC a LOT and I think it is overall fine. I also think Zinqf is right that the only real problem is that GI has nothing else going for it once SC dies. Make GI a more complete faction and that problem disappears.

Angelify is not an appropriate response to spot removal. It is a one time use that would only help if you have priority. Not to mention that every other effect of the card would be wasted throwing it on an SC which means you are overpaying for what is essentially a gamble.

I also pack 4 SCs in every Genesis deck I have because at present Genesis is worthless if you don't have an SC on the field since it has pretty horrible alternatives for mid-late game. (dragon project :'() Genesis is supposed to be the "late game" faction but to be quite honest the best strat I've seen/used/had the most success with is rushing out a turn 2 scientist and rushing down their health against everything except PoV and Undead. Assassinate comes too late to stop it since its a turn 6-7 win and the other threat is the two cost from red that pushes it back to your hand. That faction is legitimately the natural predator of late game decks like this so I have no problem with it being great against Genesis. I also have no delusions about Genesis ever being competitive unless they just become OP because that is just the nature of late game decks in competitive play. (When was the last time you saw a late game build in a magic tourney?)
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