Author Topic: Timer  (Read 4015 times)

Offline Zinqf

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Re: Timer
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2013, 07:53:30 PM »
Both players should have a game limit of 20 minutes. Since turns are simultaneous, this puts the longest possible game at 20 minutes. Turns would still have a 2 minute max length. A player could take 2 minutes for a turn but this contributes to the 20 minute game length timer also.

While I would like to see that as an option I am pretty uncomfortable with it being the default or only option. I could see some one always taking the maximum time thus being able to guarantee that there is a maximum of 10 turns a game and building a deck based around that fact. Imagine if you not only had to stabilize against Flame Dawn but you also had to pull out ahead in 10 turns or you will lose. Even if you can easily defeat the deck them making sure to filibuster every single turn will make it aggressively boring.
Each player would have 20 minutes, each player is contributing to their own pooled timer. It's not a single timer where both players are contributing to reducing the same one rofl.
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Offline MrFahrenheit

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Re: Timer
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2013, 08:40:56 PM »
Each player would have 20 minutes, each player is contributing to their own pooled timer. It's not a single timer where both players are contributing to reducing the same one rofl.

Okay since turns are simultaneous I was thinking the pool would be shared. So your turn clock would stop when you hit end turn with no relation to when the next turn actually begins (if you ended first) and the one who uses their pool first looses. If that is the case then 20 minutes is not the maximum a game could last as you said because who is taking longer could alternate radically with the extreme being one person immediately hitting and and one person taking the full time for an almost 40 minute game. Also if you end turn and then undo it to change things is the time that your turn was ended retroactively taken out of your supply since you were using it to think things through? I can only see two scenarios here, one where the pool is shared based on how long the turn takes (turn in this case being from last turns end to this turn ending which is decided by the slowest player) which is highly exploitable. The other scenario goes into very murky territory with a max game time that is still highly variable and players betting and rationing time in long games (If I end turn now I can plan without losing my pool so long as I un-end it before they finish). I am in favor of the turn timer being capped at two minutes but, simultaneous turns make an overall pool of time just seems like a somewhat confusing and occasionally even stressful solution to a problem I just don't have. I could see it be necessary in tournament play or as an option for casual play I just don't like it as the standard.

Edit

I  guess there is a third option of whoever has taken the most time at the end of 20 minutes looses. That still seems inelegant and outside of tournaments unnecessary and also still leaves open the question of ending and unending turns. Also how does the resolve phase factor in? I don't know how it currently works with turn timers as is but does looking at the results of last turn take time out of your current turn? If it does that seems pretty noob unfriendly as it disincentives them seeing how things resolved and encourages them clicking through without looking. If it doesn't then you are giving the players an amount of time out of the system making this their new planning phase.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 09:22:24 PM by MrFahrenheit »

Offline Zinqf

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Re: Timer
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2013, 12:09:35 AM »
Each player would have 20 minutes, each player is contributing to their own pooled timer. It's not a single timer where both players are contributing to reducing the same one rofl.

Okay since turns are simultaneous I was thinking the pool would be shared. So your turn clock would stop when you hit end turn with no relation to when the next turn actually begins (if you ended first) and the one who uses their pool first looses. If that is the case then 20 minutes is not the maximum a game could last as you said because who is taking longer could alternate radically with the extreme being one person immediately hitting and and one person taking the full time for an almost 40 minute game. Also if you end turn and then undo it to change things is the time that your turn was ended retroactively taken out of your supply since you were using it to think things through? I can only see two scenarios here, one where the pool is shared based on how long the turn takes (turn in this case being from last turns end to this turn ending which is decided by the slowest player) which is highly exploitable. The other scenario goes into very murky territory with a max game time that is still highly variable and players betting and rationing time in long games (If I end turn now I can plan without losing my pool so long as I un-end it before they finish). I am in favor of the turn timer being capped at two minutes but, simultaneous turns make an overall pool of time just seems like a somewhat confusing and occasionally even stressful solution to a problem I just don't have. I could see it be necessary in tournament play or as an option for casual play I just don't like it as the standard.

Edit

I  guess there is a third option of whoever has taken the most time at the end of 20 minutes looses. That still seems inelegant and outside of tournaments unnecessary and also still leaves open the question of ending and unending turns. Also how does the resolve phase factor in? I don't know how it currently works with turn timers as is but does looking at the results of last turn take time out of your current turn? If it does that seems pretty noob unfriendly as it disincentives them seeing how things resolved and encourages them clicking through without looking. If it doesn't then you are giving the players an amount of time out of the system making this their new planning phase.
Since turns are simultaneous, it's 20 minutes maximum. Players have their own pool which deplete at the same time but stop at the time their turns end.

Turn 1 - Player A takes 30 seconds, Player B takes 60 seconds.
Player A's remaining time 19:30; Player B's remaining time 19:00

Turn 2 - Player A takes 15 seconds, Player B takes 60 seconds.
Player A's remaining time 19:15; Player B's remaining time 18:00

I never pointed out what should happen if a player runs out of time. When a player's pool runs out completely, the player could be subject to a different type of penalty, such as 15 second forced turns instead of outright losing.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 12:18:24 AM by Zinqf »
Fact - 42.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

Offline Jade

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Re: Timer
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2013, 12:44:48 AM »
Turn 1 - Player A takes 30 seconds, Player B takes 60 seconds.
Player A's remaining time 19:30; Player B's remaining time 19:00

Turn 2 - Player A takes 15 seconds, Player B takes 60 seconds.
Player A's remaining time 19:15; Player B's remaining time 18:00

No, he's right.  This is a very good point.

Turn 1 - Player A takes 60 seconds, Player B takes 5 seconds.
Player A's remaining time 19:00; Player B's remaining time 19:55

Turn 2 - Player A takes 5 seconds, Player B takes 60 seconds.
Player A's remaining time 18:55; Player B's remaining time 18:55

Actual time elapsed: 2 minutes (not 1:05)

I never pointed out what should happen if a player runs out of time. When a player's pool runs out completely, the player could be subject to a different type of penalty, such as 15 second forced turns instead of outright losing.

That's the go system  :P  (well, with only one byo-yomi period of 15 seconds)

Offline MrFahrenheit

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Re: Timer
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2013, 03:33:41 AM »
I never pointed out what should happen if a player runs out of time. When a player's pool runs out completely, the player could be subject to a different type of penalty, such as 15 second forced turns instead of outright losing.

Both players should have a game limit of 20 minutes. Since turns are simultaneous, this puts the longest possible game at 20 minutes. Turns would still have a 2 minute max length. A player could take 2 minutes for a turn but this contributes to the 20 minute game length timer also.

I have put emphasis on the above words because they have been where most of my problems are coming from. I might be getting a bit too hung up on the wording but that heavily implies an immediate end and whoever was ahead winning. If we have separate pools of time and a match going to 20 minutes means it has ended then as far as I know that can only mean whoever has used less times for their turn wins. This is not only really unwieldy but, also widens the gap between new players and veterans who know all of the cards both they and their opponents are using without examining them. Otherwise it would probably be a total of health and morale at which point my filibuster complaint would stand.

If that does not mean match cannot possibly exceed 20 minutes total then we are stuck with a highly variable total time limit (thanks Jade for showing the work for me). Remember you can undo hitting end turn as long as your opponent hasn't ended theirs yet so that would either have to be changed or we would have to have it add all the time between when you first hit end turn and when you undid it to the clock. Otherwise you could gamble by hitting end turn immediately and using that frozen clock to think over what you want to do as long as you resume turn before they end theirs. Even if it is so lax it barely ever effects games there would still presumably be a second timer for it somewhere and that would still be a weight on people's minds. It would be a system that you cannot directly benefit from that exists mostly to intimidate people while giving very little. It would in no way be out of place in a tournament or as an option for the host but I think as the standard in casual or ranked matches it would just be subtly oppressive without adding much.

Offline wizzawig

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Re: Timer
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2013, 03:00:19 PM »
I don't like the idea of anybody losing on time in this game, just like I never liked losing on time in magic.  That said I like fast games and I'm all for the timer being brought down to 2 mins or even lower.

Perhaps there could be an option of speed games with 30s timers.

Offline Zinqf

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Re: Timer
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2013, 07:57:06 PM »
I don't like the idea of anybody losing on time in this game, just like I never liked losing on time in magic.  That said I like fast games and I'm all for the timer being brought down to 2 mins or even lower.

Perhaps there could be an option of speed games with 30s timers.
Build that into Hyper mode Oo

And it wouldn't be "Losing on time", the game just becomes Blitz for them after they run out of total game time. So then their turns are 15-30 second timers that pass their turn like normal. I'm a fan of the "Take your time, but hurry up" philosophy.
Fact - 42.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot.