Author Topic: Timer  (Read 4011 times)

Offline Koey

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Timer
« on: June 09, 2013, 04:03:06 PM »
Having recently played a bit of Scrolls. They have a 90 minute and it seems a little short sometime cause you might have delay and enter at 85 seconds.
How do people feel about IW and the 3 minute timer?
I feel its 1 minute too long in most case.

Also would it make sense to see 2 timer. (One is how much time you have left to plan to other is how much time your opponent has left.)

I am debating whether your own timer should pause after you submit turn. Or just keep it going so people know how much longer to wait for the opponent. Basically ensuring each turn is only 2 minites.

What do others think?

Offline Zinqf

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Re: Timer
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2013, 05:05:11 PM »
I think 90 seconds was fine for scrolls, I normally take 20-45 seconds per turn but some people need time to think. For IW, I believe there should be a timer POOL.

Both players should have a game limit of 20 minutes. Since turns are simultaneous, this puts the longest possible game at 20 minutes. Turns would still have a 2 minute max length. A player could take 2 minutes for a turn but this contributes to the 20 minute game length timer also.

This also removes the need for a timer that reduces itself over time. It can stay 2 minutes but your entire game should be 20 minutes at most.

Also, any game that has an opponent time out (turn end due to 2 minutes spent) in consecutive turns without playing any cards or using any abilities or using the trading post should lose the game. This way if a player is AFK, it would disqualify them (even though the active player would have to wait 4 minutes). A player disqualified this way should be subject to the "Concede" timer to enter another game.

 
« Last Edit: June 09, 2013, 05:10:25 PM by Zinqf »
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Offline Koey

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Re: Timer
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2013, 05:42:11 PM »
I think 90 seconds was fine for scrolls, I normally take 20-45 seconds per turn but some people need time to think. For IW, I believe there should be a timer POOL.
I agree and disagree. Cause in IW you can choose to undo several times to plan your move so it usually does take more time. Also don't forget as people learn the game, they more they doubt themselves the more time it will take.


Both players should have a game limit of 20 minutes. Since turns are simultaneous, this puts the longest possible game at 20 minutes. Turns would still have a 2 minute max length. A player could take 2 minutes for a turn but this contributes to the 20 minute game length timer also.

This also removes the need for a timer that reduces itself over time. It can stay 2 minutes but your entire game should be 20 minutes at most.
Maybe that could work, then again not sure if setting a full limit is good.

Also, any game that has an opponent time out (turn end due to 2 minutes spent) in consecutive turns without playing any cards or using any abilities or using the trading post should lose the game. This way if a player is AFK, it would disqualify them (even though the active player would have to wait 4 minutes). A player disqualified this way should be subject to the "Concede" timer to enter another game.
Only time I have made those mistakes is before the alert when a game has started. ><

Offline Jade

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Re: Timer
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2013, 05:46:41 PM »
I'd agree with 2 minutes, although it hasn't been an issue for me either.  Also like the idea of it not pausing after you finish a turn, as there's no real need for that and as you said, this allows you to see your opponent's remaining time.

I disagree with a timer pool.  Some of my games (often my most exciting games) take longer for legitimate reasons.  Not sure if it's actually 20 minutes, never checked.  But what is the purpose of having a maximum game time at all?  So the player who played the quickest wins?  The game is structured so as to prevent overly long games, a time restriction shouldn't be necessary.  And where this may be failing (control vs. control, although I haven't personally had this problem in a long time), I still don't think that this is the method for dealing with it.

Offline Zinqf

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Re: Timer
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2013, 06:49:23 PM »
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I agree and disagree. Cause in IW you can choose to undo several times to plan your move so it usually does take more time. Also don't forget as people learn the game, they more they doubt themselves the more time it will take.
That's exactly why I suggested 2 minutes for IW instead of the 90 seconds that scrolls gives out.
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Maybe that could work, then again not sure if setting a full limit is good.
Works well for rated games of chess. If every competitive game follows the ELO system because its perfect, why not use their time system which is fair?
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Only time I have made those mistakes is before the alert when a game has started. ><
Right, this is only to correctly award a player who has a disconnected opponent where the server still shows both players in game. I've also AFK'd while I was in Queue before and came back to a rather annoyed opponent lol. I deserve to lose when I do that =)

(And yes, that was when there was no notification of a game pop.)
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Offline Jade

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Re: Timer
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2013, 07:34:42 PM »
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Maybe that could work, then again not sure if setting a full limit is good.
Works well for rated games of chess. If every competitive game follows the ELO system because its perfect, why not use their time system which is fair?

I would argue that chess is fundamentally different.  The strategy in chess is more intense and involves thinking many moves ahead, thus a timer become necessary for competitive chess.  It allows you to spend minutes on a single turn if you choose to, but you're sacrificing your overall time clock.  IW is very strategic, but not in the same way.  There's only so much you can consider during any one turn, hence it's appropriate to limit each turn but not to limit the overall match (I think).  Plus, notice that you're suggesting a rule set that's even stricter than in chess, which is that you want to keep the individual turn limits and add a chess-type clock on top of that.

However, if you're going to bring up chess, I'll refer to a system that I personally prefer much more, which is go.  In go, you have an overall clock, say 30 minutes.  But once that runs out, you have a separate set of very small increments that you revert to.  (These are called byo-yomi, for anyone familiar.)  For example, you may have 5 sets of 30-seconds each.  You only use up a byo-yomi period by exceeding your 30 seconds, at which point you move into the next one, until you have none left.  If your turn lasts less than 30 seconds, then you keep that byo-yomi period.  I prefer this much more to a hard time limit because you don't automatically lose if you took too long earlier in the game, however you are penalized because in a game of go, 30 seconds isn't much time and you're forced to think faster and risk making mistakes in the end-game.

I don't bring up the go system because I think we should use it.  As I said, I think a game like IW is fundamentally different and doesn't need this at all.  I just wanted to point out an alternative, more flexible system with plenty of tradition and proof that it works.

Offline Tyonidas

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Re: Timer
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2013, 07:36:34 PM »
I think 2 minutes would be a good change as 3 is way too long.  Personally I think we should be able to set the time limit ourselves when we create the game.

Offline Calamity

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Re: Timer
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2013, 08:04:10 PM »
I think 2 minutes would be a good change as 3 is way too long.  Personally I think we should be able to set the time limit ourselves when we create the game.

2 min. I agree on. As for having the hosting player setting up the time limit themselves, there should still be a max. time and min. time limit to make sure that person doesn't make the create the timer to be too short or too long.
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Offline Zinqf

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Re: Timer
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2013, 10:58:02 PM »
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I would argue that chess is fundamentally different.
The ELO system came from Chess but it is used in all different types of games. What do they have in common? They are all competitive games in need of a fair ranking system for matching opponents and judging progression.

The time clock system chess uses for normal games is the same thing. TONS of games use it. What do THOSE games have in common? They are mostly thought based games that use a turn system.

This quoted argument works when talking about specific game mechanics, not an argument to use whenever anyone brings up anything regarding any other game.
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However, if you're going to bring up chess, I'll refer to a system that I personally prefer much more, which is go.  In go, you have an overall clock, say 30 minutes.  But once that runs out, you have a separate set of very small increments that you revert to.  (These are called byo-yomi, for anyone familiar.)  For example, you may have 5 sets of 30-seconds each.  You only use up a byo-yomi period by exceeding your 30 seconds, at which point you move into the next one, until you have none left.  If your turn lasts less than 30 seconds, then you keep that byo-yomi period.  I prefer this much more to a hard time limit because you don't automatically lose if you took too long earlier in the game, however you are penalized because in a game of go, 30 seconds isn't much time and you're forced to think faster and risk making mistakes in the end-game.
I think this is what IW was trying to do with their "Extend" turn timer thing. It could have been implemented better.
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Offline Jade

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Re: Timer
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2013, 11:51:31 PM »
Extend is different, it's really just a loosening of the individual turn time limit.  I mean, yeah, go's byo-yomi system is sort of like extend if extend was applied to your total time clock, not the individual turns.

The ELO system came from Chess but it is used in all different types of games. What do they have in common? They are all competitive games in need of a fair ranking system for matching opponents and judging progression.

The time clock system chess uses for normal games is the same thing. TONS of games use it. What do THOSE games have in common? They are mostly thought based games that use a turn system.

I'm not seeing your point here.  Go is also a competitive game in need of a fair ranking system for matching opponents and judging progression.  And it's a thought based game that uses a turn system.  I just offered a counter-example to your strict time clock, to demonstrate that it's not the only system that works.

In any case, you still haven't convinced me that a game-level timer is necessary or desirable, but I've had my say.  Others can feel free to chime in if they'd like.

Offline Zinqf

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Re: Timer
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2013, 12:51:38 AM »
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In any case, you still haven't convinced me that a game-level timer is necessary or desirable, but I've had my say.  Others can feel free to chime in if they'd like.
It's my personal opinion that a 2 minute maximum turn length with a 20 minute maximum game length per person per game is healthy and beneficial. It's perfectly alright if you don't think a game timer is "necessary" or "desirable".

At the very least the 20 minute full game timer should be a tourney setting and an optional hosting setting.

Both players should have a game limit of 20 minutes. Since turns are simultaneous, this puts the longest possible game at 20 minutes. Turns would still have a 2 minute max length. A player could take 2 minutes for a turn but this contributes to the 20 minute game length timer also.
I think 2 minutes would be a good change as 3 is way too long.
2 min. I agree on.
I'd agree with 2 minutes, although it hasn't been an issue for me either.
At least there seems to be a consensus on Turn length.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 12:59:39 AM by Zinqf »
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Offline Jade

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Re: Timer
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2013, 11:44:02 AM »
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In any case, you still haven't convinced me that a game-level timer is necessary or desirable, but I've had my say.  Others can feel free to chime in if they'd like.
It's my personal opinion that a 2 minute maximum turn length with a 20 minute maximum game length per person per game is healthy and beneficial. It's perfectly alright if you don't think a game timer is "necessary" or "desirable".

At the very least the 20 minute full game timer should be a tourney setting and an optional hosting setting.

I was just pointing out that you hadn't swayed me and that I had nothing new to add.  I'm perfectly happy to disagree.  I don't think it's necessary because I think other mechanics take care of this issue better.  I don't think it's desirable because I don't think anyone should lose these games because of time, and I think the only time restriction that's important is on individual turns.  That's all.

HOWEVER, you make a good point about tournaments that I wasn't considering.  I don't have experience playing these types of tournaments, but I could see the need for set maximum match lengths.  I'd still see this as a trade-off, but maybe a necessary one.

Offline WWKnight

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Re: Timer
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2013, 08:03:46 AM »
Im just going to go on the record as to say that im all for taking the turn timer down to 2 minutes, but would hate to see a game total timer.

There is nothing more dissatisfying to see a great game come to an end before a proper victor can be decided because the timer ran out.  I dont wanna win like that and I certainly dont want to lose like that.
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Offline Fidasaind

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Re: Timer
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2013, 07:03:43 PM »
2 minute timer can be a pain in certain decks later in the game. But that happens maybe once or twice per week for me. And this is coming from the guy that plays SoV tokens so often (which is usually the culprit. Using all of the abilities, moving guys into position, playing cards, and then using SoV).

Offline MrFahrenheit

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Re: Timer
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2013, 07:49:55 PM »
Both players should have a game limit of 20 minutes. Since turns are simultaneous, this puts the longest possible game at 20 minutes. Turns would still have a 2 minute max length. A player could take 2 minutes for a turn but this contributes to the 20 minute game length timer also.

While I would like to see that as an option I am pretty uncomfortable with it being the default or only option. I could see some one always taking the maximum time thus being able to guarantee that there is a maximum of 10 turns a game and building a deck based around that fact. Imagine if you not only had to stabilize against Flame Dawn but you also had to pull out ahead in 10 turns or you will lose. Even if you can easily defeat the deck them making sure to filibuster every single turn will make it aggressively boring.