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Infinity Wars => News and Developer Talk => Game Rules => Topic started by: MisterBurkes on January 07, 2013, 08:36:05 PM

Title: When is it ever worth it to pay 10 and increase your base resource by 1?
Post by: MisterBurkes on January 07, 2013, 08:36:05 PM
The option in the trading post that increases your base resource by 1 for 10 resources seems like a very bad option at the moment....essentially you are skipping an entire turn late game. Opportunity costs: playing a 10 resource cost creature, activating skills/locations equivalent to 10 resource, or paying 10 resource to draw 2 cards.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: When is it ever worth it to pay 10 and increase your base resource by 1?
Post by: pistonsfreak41 on January 07, 2013, 11:43:16 PM
When know opponent has to setup for his turn and you are about to play Calamity next turn.
Title: Re: When is it ever worth it to pay 10 and increase your base resource by 1?
Post by: WWKnight on January 08, 2013, 01:06:41 AM
When playing Warpath and you want to get more resources faster.  (I have paid 10 by turn 5 before.)
Title: Re: When is it ever worth it to pay 10 and increase your base resource by 1?
Post by: MisterBurkes on January 08, 2013, 02:49:24 AM
I can see Warpath making use of this mechanic since they have several cards that cost over 10 resource; however, to balance this out I think every other faction should also have at least 1-2 cards that cost 11+ resource.
Title: Re: When is it ever worth it to pay 10 and increase your base resource by 1?
Post by: griddark on February 23, 2013, 04:41:21 AM
How would needing to spend 10 resources to get 1 extre the next round, because you have cards that cost 11+ to play balance anything, if anything it just makes decks similar not better, I'll stick to my less that 10 resource cards.
Title: Re: When is it ever worth it to pay 10 and increase your base resource by 1?
Post by: WWKnight on February 26, 2013, 12:27:02 AM
It also allows you to play more smaller costs cards a turn.

I do it most while playing control with verore.  I save up resources (as in, cards in hand) while expanding my resources (as in, mana) and just before I am about to be finished off, I drop the calamity.  They have over extended, I have far more options and I can do a lot more in a single turn than they can.
Title: Re: When is it ever worth it to pay 10 and increase your base resource by 1?
Post by: Third on March 07, 2013, 09:15:52 AM
I find it is worth it turn 9, so you get 11 resource the next turn. But I still only find it viable if I can play something for 10+

Just looking at the numbers, the game would have to go on for 8+ more turns for that 1 resource to earn it self back.. After 8 turns it only equals out, so spending the mana didnt really do anything for you.
Title: Re: When is it ever worth it to pay 9 and increase your base resource by 1?
Post by: Zinqf on March 17, 2013, 06:01:30 AM
Quote
Just looking at the numbers, the game would have to go on for 8+ more turns for that 1 resource to earn it self back.. After 8 turns it only equals out, so spending the mana didnt really do anything for you.
It's about burst casting rather than efficiency. The ability is always there and can always be activated as long as you have the resource.
(http://i47.tinypic.com/35mo6k2.jpg)

1. When you plan on casting a card that costs more than 10 resources. Or a card that costs more than 10 resources plus any nobles/life on passing characters.

2. When you plan on casting multiple cards that exceed 10 resources together. Such as 2 Assassinates or Winds of War and Martyr Golem...

3. When setting up for a calamity as you'll generally not be spending the 9 resources the turn before playing calamity (Unless you needed more cards).

4. When a morale deck only waits for you to play characters that'll die to the 10+ removal cards in their hand...Build up resources to wipe out the rest of their HP in one turn. What are they going to do? Play characters and attack your health?

5. Calamity First....Call of the Crusade Second...in the same turn...when your opponent has initiative.

6. In epic mode, you'll actually get a return on your investment. Or at the very least increase your "already amazing burst casting potential".
Quote

7. If you believe your opponent is setting up calamity, you may want this when you have 9 resources. (2 cards might be better on the 10 resource turn).
How would needing to spend 10 resources to get 1 extre the next round, because you have cards that cost 11+ to play balance anything, if anything it just makes decks similar not better, I'll stick to my less that 10 resource cards.
That is a smart decision. This option is not for everyone, nor should it have to be either. But the option is always there and any player can use it....if they can afford it.
Title: Re: When is it ever worth it to pay 10 and increase your base resource by 1?
Post by: Defertos on March 17, 2013, 08:02:45 PM
It certainly does have it's uses like Zinqf posted.

However it feels kinda "clumsy", it's a feature that is only used maybe once every 20+ or so games even though it is a baseline feature everyone has access to.


It could work better if it was a "supply bar" that fills if you have unspent resources when you end a turn.
The "supply bar" would start at 0 and every time it reaches 10 your max resources increase by 1 and the "supply bar" would return to 0.
Also it would give everyone a tactical option of choosing to fill the supply bar instead of using a spell or summoning a character, while retaining the exact same functions it has now.

For example: you have 6 resources, you summon one character with cost of 3 and because all of your other cards cost 4 or more you end your turn, and then your "supply bar" fills by 3.


Not to mention that then cards that affect a "supply bar" could be made like a "supply caravan" a 1 cost 0/2 character that increases your supply bar by 2 every turn it is on support zone and many others.
Title: Re: When is it ever worth it to pay 10 and increase your base resource by 1?
Post by: Zinqf on March 18, 2013, 12:16:08 AM
Quote
However it feels kinda "clumsy", it's a feature that is only used maybe once every 20+ or so games even though it is a baseline feature everyone has access to.

It could work better if it was a "supply bar" that fills if you have unspent resources when you end a turn.
That sounds really good and pretty useful. The only issue is that I believe this system was created with an exclusive "This will work for me" or "That's a complete waste to me" type of decision.

I wouldn't mind at all if it filled up that way though. Maybe...12 unspent resources = 1 base resource? (Remember, its way easier to not spent 12 resources over time then to devote 9 resources on one turn)

Quote
Not to mention that then cards that affect a "supply bar" could be made like a "supply caravan" a 1 cost 0/2 character that increases your supply bar by 2 every turn it is on support zone and many others.
Then they could remove the drawback from wealthy noble and make it fill up the supply bar by 3 or something every turn instead of granting a resource at the cost of 5 morale when he dies or 4 morale when sacrificed.
Title: Re: When is it ever worth it to pay 10 and increase your base resource by 1?
Post by: duds7317 on June 27, 2013, 04:03:47 PM
I completely support this supply bar idea along with the strategic advantages it adds both in play and possible cards. The biggest issue is determining how big it should be 12 certainly sounds about right but id love a chance to see how it tests out. Whenever i play warpath I end up wasting 2 resources more then once in a game because my pack leaders don't add up well with with the rest of the cards in my hand and it drives me nuts to just let them go to waste. but 12 seems a bit of a stretch goal if you don't have some kind of effect feeding directly into it.
Title: Re: When is it ever worth it to pay 10 and increase your base resource by 1?
Post by: Tyonidas on June 27, 2013, 04:30:21 PM
I use this function probably 1 out of every 3-4 games if they get to that point.   I thought the same thing before I started using it and I was new.  While there are a number of reasons each individual might use it all I know is that once players start using it regularly they usually can't believe they never did sooner.
Title: Re: When is it ever worth it to pay 10 and increase your base resource by 1?
Post by: moominpeter on June 27, 2013, 08:04:21 PM
I use this function probably 1 out of every 3-4 games if they get to that point.   I thought the same thing before I started using it and I was new.  While there are a number of reasons each individual might use it all I know is that once players start using it regularly they usually can't believe they never did sooner.
This is my experience as well. I didn't use it for a long time after starting to play, then as I built more control-oriented decks and learned the game better I found that it is actually a really powerful option. I use it both when playing control and when playing against control pretty frequently.

When two aggro or midrange decks face each other the game is usually all but over by Turn 9, and you often can't spare a turn anyway if the game is not over. So if you're not finding it useful it could be that you're mostly playing aggro rather than control, or it could be that you don't yet know the game well enough to understand why it's good.
Title: Re: When is it ever worth it to pay 10 and increase your base resource by 1?
Post by: Zinqf on June 27, 2013, 10:14:58 PM
I use this function probably 1 out of every 3-4 games if they get to that point.   I thought the same thing before I started using it and I was new.  While there are a number of reasons each individual might use it all I know is that once players start using it regularly they usually can't believe they never did sooner.
This is my experience as well. I didn't use it for a long time after starting to play, then as I built more control-oriented decks and learned the game better I found that it is actually a really powerful option. I use it both when playing control and when playing against control pretty frequently.

When two aggro or midrange decks face each other the game is usually all but over by Turn 9, and you often can't spare a turn anyway if the game is not over. So if you're not finding it useful it could be that you're mostly playing aggro rather than control, or it could be that you don't yet know the game well enough to understand why it's good.
It's a positive thing if this function is good in some situations and bad in others.
Title: Re: When is it ever worth it to pay 10 and increase your base resource by 1?
Post by: Hitori on July 11, 2013, 04:24:03 PM
Let me just play Devil's advocate here for a moment:

Supply bar filling? Really?

Where's the whole 'using your resources properly is a tactical decision' idea? Where's the min/maxing that you must do to even be remotely considered decent at games such as this?
I feel this is too simple, too forgiving a system. This sort of thing can be used tactically, sure, but it is also a tool for anyone who forgot to spend his resources properly and will not really get punished for it.

When your deck composition is not good you may find yourself with nothing to play on turn 1, or maybe a 2 cost card at turn 3, and so on. You need to make sure the deck has a nice resource-curve, and you need to use those resources properly or essentially 'lose' them if you don't. May I remind you that all of the abilities in the 'Trading Post' in play are ALREADY giving you options to act with spare resources (or sometimes, not so much spare, rather your need to draw a card or boost your future resources)?

I feel this is a bad idea, and if I sound harsh believe me - I'm a total noob when it comes to IW, but this feels too noob-friendly to me. We already have good mechanics to deal with spare resources, let's not make it any easier than it should be (and please - let's not make it an automatic, thoughtless, process that rewards you in the long run for being bad in the short run).
Title: Re: When is it ever worth it to pay 10 and increase your base resource by 1?
Post by: TimetoSplit on July 11, 2013, 11:53:38 PM
Yeah, but the supply bar has one really cool advantage, and that's helping with spells that cost 11 and over.  I feel that with Noble being a good card anyway, you can get "lucky" and just happen to cast a huge dragon for 11+ mana, or you might have to spend an entire turn doing nothing just to get that one extra resource.  I guess you could also use Varyus or draw some cards until you get a noble (assuming that your Nobles died or you have none out), but I like the supply bar idea because it makes it a lot more reasonable to play spells that cost over 10.  Maybe we could compromise, like if the temporary resources ONLY kicked in after you hit 10 resources, so it'd be a very minor benefit, but it'd allow you even to get to 13 or 14 resources if you didn't use the temporary resources in the mid to late game.  And that would be fantastic, because it would make unplayable cards into playable ones.
Title: Re: When is it ever worth it to pay 10 and increase your base resource by 1?
Post by: Tyonidas on July 11, 2013, 11:58:00 PM
Let me just play Devil's advocate here for a moment:

Supply bar filling? Really?

Where's the whole 'using your resources properly is a tactical decision' idea? Where's the min/maxing that you must do to even be remotely considered decent at games such as this?
I feel this is too simple, too forgiving a system. This sort of thing can be used tactically, sure, but it is also a tool for anyone who forgot to spend his resources properly and will not really get punished for it.

When your deck composition is not good you may find yourself with nothing to play on turn 1, or maybe a 2 cost card at turn 3, and so on. You need to make sure the deck has a nice resource-curve, and you need to use those resources properly or essentially 'lose' them if you don't. May I remind you that all of the abilities in the 'Trading Post' in play are ALREADY giving you options to act with spare resources (or sometimes, not so much spare, rather your need to draw a card or boost your future resources)?

I feel this is a bad idea, and if I sound harsh believe me - I'm a total noob when it comes to IW, but this feels too noob-friendly to me. We already have good mechanics to deal with spare resources, let's not make it any easier than it should be (and please - let's not make it an automatic, thoughtless, process that rewards you in the long run for being bad in the short run).

Everything he said is spot on.  There will be turns where resources don't get used, just part of the game.  You shouldn't be able to store those away for a rainy day.  Also, every card over 10 resources is usually beastly...hence the reason you need to plan ahead if you intend on using them...be it using Nobles or by purchasing a resource on a turn.
Title: Re: When is it ever worth it to pay 10 and increase your base resource by 1?
Post by: Nerfles on October 19, 2013, 09:59:00 PM
I think the REAL issue is the cards which cost >10

Ao Shun: DoD - 12
Good for card draw, unkillable unless you exile it but you want to drain your opponent's morale before then for sure.

Call of the Warpath: Warpath - 14
Play this, unless your opponent has a board wipe, it's game over.

Dragon of Summer Flame: FD - 11
FD doesn't get to turn 11.

Hidden by Clouds: Warpath - 13
Big meaty creature, WP can get here, but usually this is a walking target.

Mega Unit 02: Genesis - 13
Seen it twice, it got run over.

Subjugated Dragon: Cult - 11
This thing is awesome.

The Calamity: Factionless - 11
Crazy spell when played right.

The Virus of Avarrach: Sleepers - 14
Sleepers will never have the resources for this. I play sleepers, and once Patient Zero comes online, I am basically always using him, or something else, never get above 10 resources. Sleepers only has 1 spell above 10, and even then Patient Zero is 8, Hekeem is 7, and the important things are 6 or less.

In all fairness, I think increase to resources should be at 7. The justification behind this is most things happen at 3, and the next turn you will get your 8th resource (+1), so will be looking at 9, and you can have a giant power spike.

But as for the "wasted" resources, this is where strategy comes into play. Possibly having some way to dump extra resources might be an option, but I would like it from cards to be honest. More low cost commander choices.
Title: Re: When is it ever worth it to pay 10 and increase your base resource by 1?
Post by: Erlaya on October 22, 2013, 11:03:43 AM
Dragon of Summer Flame: FD - 11
FD doesn't get to turn 11.

The best games I've had against other amazing players have been 15-20 turns long Flame Dawn vs X or Y with my Pure Flame Dawn deck.  Trust me there are plenty of chances to play Summer Flame or Agent Dragon in Flame Dawn as the playerbase gets better.
Title: Re: When is it ever worth it to pay 10 and increase your base resource by 1?
Post by: DrayGon777 on October 22, 2013, 05:06:40 PM
Not to mention many of the top players tend to run calamity anyways, so getting to 11 isn't that big of a problem.
Title: Re: When is it ever worth it to pay 10 and increase your base resource by 1?
Post by: ArcaneAzmadi on March 01, 2014, 12:25:24 PM
If I might revive this long-dead topic, I think the option to boost your resource still needs looking at. I NEVER use it unless I'm actually holding my Subjugated Dragon in my hand (and that's the only 11+ cost card I use at all). The real problem with it is that it's practically NEVER a good investment unless you've built your deck around absolutely huge-cost cards that NEED you to boost your resource. Even if I have nothing worth playing in my hand and nothing else to spend resource on, I'd always sooner spend my resource on cards draws than upgrading.

The problem is that using the resource upgrade option basically shuts you down for an entire turn. Unless you already have upgraded resources from Wealthy Noble, Brings Life By Passing or Growth, you can only afford a single 1-cost card or ability on that turn. That HURTS. The loss of tempo is massive, especially at that late stage of the game.

How about this: make the cost start at 8, but increase by +1 every time you do it (going from 10 to 11 costs 8R, going from 11 to 12 costs 9R etc). So you'll always have a bit more resource to spare after upgrading (there's a world of difference between 1 and 2 resource) but it won't get easier to "snowball" your resources.

Sorry if I'm committing a faux paux by reviving this topic, but it's so near the top of this subforum (not a lot gets posted here) that I can't see the harm of it.
Title: Re: When is it ever worth it to pay 10 and increase your base resource by 1?
Post by: Erlaya on March 01, 2014, 01:00:06 PM
I actually feel that to some effect the cost should be reduced by a little.  But I've kind of always thought it should be
2 - Shuffle
5 - Draw
8 - Pump (Maybe even 7)

Now you bring on a whole new level of possibilities especially with a 7 cost of people actually playing the high cost cards more often.
Title: Re: When is it ever worth it to pay 10 and increase your base resource by 1?
Post by: opferunm on March 01, 2014, 10:36:03 PM
I perfectly like the current system and don't really see why you should change it. If your deck is no a no brain-playallthecharacters deck, you will find yourself not wanting to play anything the next turn sometimes, sometimes getting a ressource is the better option than drawing a card. So there are occasions, even if you don't even have a 11+ cost card where you'd use it, even if it costs 9. With people (imho unjsutified) puffying about call the warpath in another thread, i don't think it would be a good idea to make access to the 11+ cards more easy.

Most of them are more or less gamebreaking and also relatively rare. If they would be easier to play, you would not have to think much about using them anymore, they'd be an auto include for many decks. Because they are all epic, this could mean a bigger disadvantage for newer players.
Lets take a lot at those Cards:

11 Cost:
The Calamity: Complete Board wipe, including commanders and with removal from the game. Also usable in every deck because it's factionless. Therefore you have to skip one turn but as someone stated before, you wouldn't want to play anything inbefore normally.

Subjugated Dragon: 22/22 unstoppable Flyer, Flyers are already relatively hard to deal with, but this guy also doesn't cost morale when he dies and spawns 4 6/6 new flyers. Also it's a verore Card, so you can easily afford to skip a turn very often, when there are no threads left to deal with after mass death in turn 8 or your opponent thinks you're playing mass death.

Dragon of Summer Flame: Flying, Unstoppable, Immolate 5 and kills the enemies defense zone over time. 24/24. You can play a herald in turn 10, while increasing your resources and let this guy charge in turn 11. Also as flame dawn, if you haven't won or lost this far in the game, playing more characters out of your hand won't help too much oftentimes, so you don't really lose anything if you "skip" one turn.

All those cards can even be cast easily without increasing your resources, even safely, if you drop the noble or BLBP the turn before.

12 Cost: Still realistically reachable with nobles only (for a secured play you need to save 2 of them in your hand)

Avarrach has Risen: Gamebreaking card, in many games this is kind of an "I Win" button. Sleepers also have the option of reviving their own or enemies nobles with hekeem or raise dead.

Hidden by clouds: Warpath has access to 3 different cards directly increasing resources (noble, Brings life by passing and Growth -> with 3BLBP in command, 12 cards) , a location lowering the ressource cost by 1 and Karani ( with 1 cost abilities and untapped wilderness you could increase your resources by 4 for one turn). Even if you Assasinate hidden, it will normally have spawned the next one out of the deck. After 2 turns, 1,2 or 3 beasts per turn come into play without any cost. Did i mention that the character is 35/35 and can block flyers?

Ao Shun: Not the best card in my opinion, but Indestrucitble, 30/30 unstoppable, flying and a card drawing machine. Dod can also often afford to do nothing for one turn, if their defence is strong enough.

13 Cost:
Mega unit 02: Also pretty strong, but not completely gamebreaking. Also it's getting hard to play this one without increasing your resources.

14 Cost:
Call the Warpath: Look in the other thread, not overpowered, but like Hidden, you can get to those ressources way easier in WP.
 
Virus of Avarrach: Literally gamebreaking, the game can't handle the sheer amount of tokens created oftentimes and crashes even on strong computers (dunno if already resolved). Kills everything and gives you a token for every character that died in the entire game. Harder to play than most other of these cards, Nobles could create a morale problem because they will be killed by this one. I don't want to see this in turn 10.



Maybe Scaling with the total resources you have would be an option; If you have under 10 ressources it still costs 9, at 10 8, at 11 9 again, at 12 10 etc.
But i don't really see that this one extra resource would benefit you too much in turn 10 most of the time.

Title: Re: When is it ever worth it to pay 10 and increase your base resource by 1?
Post by: moominpeter on March 02, 2014, 08:29:07 PM
It's fine as is. Most decks don't ever really want to use the resource bump, but a few do. For the ones that do, the cost/reward is pretty well balanced.
Title: Re: When is it ever worth it to pay 10 and increase your base resource by 1?
Post by: TimetoSplit on March 02, 2014, 08:56:39 PM
I'm pretty happy with how the 10+ cost cards are balanced right now.

Calamity requires you to do nothing for a turn, which is fine.  Since it kills everything.

Sub Dragon is great because it's unstoppable, has a death-effect, and costs zero morale!

Summer Flame is a little different....I'd say its only playable because FD does not have any "big" creatures, and this one is really solid - Unstoppable and flying! :D

The Warpath ones....well WP has lots of ramp, so it's not a problem.

Mega Unit 02 is completely absurd in terms of power level, but unfortunately it only really enters play through Awaken or Evelee, but that's okay because it's so insane.

Ao Shun is playable with Surprise Defense, and DoD can protect their nobles better than anyone.

The sleepers cards are tougher to justify though.  Sure they are insanely strong, but Sleepers are supposed to be the slowroll/lategame swarm faction, but they don't really have any enablers for these 12+ cost cards besides what opferunm mentioned.  I would love to see some sort of resource growth for each faction.  Like Sleepers could have a card where if it's in the graveyard, you may sacrifice a character to gain a resource, and GI could have an artifact where you exhaust 2 artificial characters and gain 1 resource, and so forth.
Title: Re: When is it ever worth it to pay 10 and increase your base resource by 1?
Post by: Shimrra3 on March 04, 2014, 10:20:07 AM
The sleepers cards are tougher to justify though.  Sure they are insanely strong, but Sleepers are supposed to be the slowroll/lategame swarm faction, but they don't really have any enablers for these 12+ cost cards besides what opferunm mentioned.  I would love to see some sort of resource growth for each faction.  Like Sleepers could have a card where if it's in the graveyard, you may sacrifice a character to gain a resource, and GI could have an artifact where you exhaust 2 artificial characters and gain 1 resource, and so forth.

I agree with this. Ramp for the sake of ramp in every faction would be stupid, but having ramp that has a synergy with the faction, well, that's way cooler.

I also agree that the current cost of 9 is probably OK*. Virtually everything that necessitates increasing your resources is very powerful, as has been said already.

* - The UI surrounding the increase resource action itself, on the other hand... lets just say I talked to our favorite community manager and he had me send support a message about it. Can't undo the action, opponent can't see it happening, etc. But that's off-topic.
Title: Re: When is it ever worth it to pay 10 and increase your base resource by 1?
Post by: Berabouman on March 05, 2014, 04:54:52 AM
For what it's worth, I think it's pretty well balanced at present.
Title: Re: When is it ever worth it to pay 10 and increase your base resource by 1?
Post by: moominpeter on March 07, 2014, 10:53:12 PM
Every faction already has ramp. It's called Wealthy Noble.