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Infinity Wars => News and Developer Talk => Game Rules => Topic started by: Koey on June 09, 2013, 04:03:06 PM

Title: Timer
Post by: Koey on June 09, 2013, 04:03:06 PM
Having recently played a bit of Scrolls. They have a 90 minute and it seems a little short sometime cause you might have delay and enter at 85 seconds.
How do people feel about IW and the 3 minute timer?
I feel its 1 minute too long in most case.

Also would it make sense to see 2 timer. (One is how much time you have left to plan to other is how much time your opponent has left.)

I am debating whether your own timer should pause after you submit turn. Or just keep it going so people know how much longer to wait for the opponent. Basically ensuring each turn is only 2 minites.

What do others think?
Title: Re: Timer
Post by: Zinqf on June 09, 2013, 05:05:11 PM
I think 90 seconds was fine for scrolls, I normally take 20-45 seconds per turn but some people need time to think. For IW, I believe there should be a timer POOL.

Both players should have a game limit of 20 minutes. Since turns are simultaneous, this puts the longest possible game at 20 minutes. Turns would still have a 2 minute max length. A player could take 2 minutes for a turn but this contributes to the 20 minute game length timer also.

This also removes the need for a timer that reduces itself over time. It can stay 2 minutes but your entire game should be 20 minutes at most.

Also, any game that has an opponent time out (turn end due to 2 minutes spent) in consecutive turns without playing any cards or using any abilities or using the trading post should lose the game. This way if a player is AFK, it would disqualify them (even though the active player would have to wait 4 minutes). A player disqualified this way should be subject to the "Concede" timer to enter another game.

 
Title: Re: Timer
Post by: Koey on June 09, 2013, 05:42:11 PM
I think 90 seconds was fine for scrolls, I normally take 20-45 seconds per turn but some people need time to think. For IW, I believe there should be a timer POOL.
I agree and disagree. Cause in IW you can choose to undo several times to plan your move so it usually does take more time. Also don't forget as people learn the game, they more they doubt themselves the more time it will take.


Both players should have a game limit of 20 minutes. Since turns are simultaneous, this puts the longest possible game at 20 minutes. Turns would still have a 2 minute max length. A player could take 2 minutes for a turn but this contributes to the 20 minute game length timer also.

This also removes the need for a timer that reduces itself over time. It can stay 2 minutes but your entire game should be 20 minutes at most.
Maybe that could work, then again not sure if setting a full limit is good.

Also, any game that has an opponent time out (turn end due to 2 minutes spent) in consecutive turns without playing any cards or using any abilities or using the trading post should lose the game. This way if a player is AFK, it would disqualify them (even though the active player would have to wait 4 minutes). A player disqualified this way should be subject to the "Concede" timer to enter another game.
Only time I have made those mistakes is before the alert when a game has started. ><
Title: Re: Timer
Post by: Jade on June 09, 2013, 05:46:41 PM
I'd agree with 2 minutes, although it hasn't been an issue for me either.  Also like the idea of it not pausing after you finish a turn, as there's no real need for that and as you said, this allows you to see your opponent's remaining time.

I disagree with a timer pool.  Some of my games (often my most exciting games) take longer for legitimate reasons.  Not sure if it's actually 20 minutes, never checked.  But what is the purpose of having a maximum game time at all?  So the player who played the quickest wins?  The game is structured so as to prevent overly long games, a time restriction shouldn't be necessary.  And where this may be failing (control vs. control, although I haven't personally had this problem in a long time), I still don't think that this is the method for dealing with it.
Title: Re: Timer
Post by: Zinqf on June 09, 2013, 06:49:23 PM
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I agree and disagree. Cause in IW you can choose to undo several times to plan your move so it usually does take more time. Also don't forget as people learn the game, they more they doubt themselves the more time it will take.
That's exactly why I suggested 2 minutes for IW instead of the 90 seconds that scrolls gives out.
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Maybe that could work, then again not sure if setting a full limit is good.
Works well for rated games of chess. If every competitive game follows the ELO system because its perfect, why not use their time system which is fair?
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Only time I have made those mistakes is before the alert when a game has started. ><
Right, this is only to correctly award a player who has a disconnected opponent where the server still shows both players in game. I've also AFK'd while I was in Queue before and came back to a rather annoyed opponent lol. I deserve to lose when I do that =)

(And yes, that was when there was no notification of a game pop.)
Title: Re: Timer
Post by: Jade on June 09, 2013, 07:34:42 PM
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Maybe that could work, then again not sure if setting a full limit is good.
Works well for rated games of chess. If every competitive game follows the ELO system because its perfect, why not use their time system which is fair?

I would argue that chess is fundamentally different.  The strategy in chess is more intense and involves thinking many moves ahead, thus a timer become necessary for competitive chess.  It allows you to spend minutes on a single turn if you choose to, but you're sacrificing your overall time clock.  IW is very strategic, but not in the same way.  There's only so much you can consider during any one turn, hence it's appropriate to limit each turn but not to limit the overall match (I think).  Plus, notice that you're suggesting a rule set that's even stricter than in chess, which is that you want to keep the individual turn limits and add a chess-type clock on top of that.

However, if you're going to bring up chess, I'll refer to a system that I personally prefer much more, which is go.  In go, you have an overall clock, say 30 minutes.  But once that runs out, you have a separate set of very small increments that you revert to.  (These are called byo-yomi, for anyone familiar.)  For example, you may have 5 sets of 30-seconds each.  You only use up a byo-yomi period by exceeding your 30 seconds, at which point you move into the next one, until you have none left.  If your turn lasts less than 30 seconds, then you keep that byo-yomi period.  I prefer this much more to a hard time limit because you don't automatically lose if you took too long earlier in the game, however you are penalized because in a game of go, 30 seconds isn't much time and you're forced to think faster and risk making mistakes in the end-game.

I don't bring up the go system because I think we should use it.  As I said, I think a game like IW is fundamentally different and doesn't need this at all.  I just wanted to point out an alternative, more flexible system with plenty of tradition and proof that it works.
Title: Re: Timer
Post by: Tyonidas on June 09, 2013, 07:36:34 PM
I think 2 minutes would be a good change as 3 is way too long.  Personally I think we should be able to set the time limit ourselves when we create the game.
Title: Re: Timer
Post by: Calamity on June 09, 2013, 08:04:10 PM
I think 2 minutes would be a good change as 3 is way too long.  Personally I think we should be able to set the time limit ourselves when we create the game.

2 min. I agree on. As for having the hosting player setting up the time limit themselves, there should still be a max. time and min. time limit to make sure that person doesn't make the create the timer to be too short or too long.
Title: Re: Timer
Post by: Zinqf on June 09, 2013, 10:58:02 PM
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I would argue that chess is fundamentally different.
The ELO system came from Chess but it is used in all different types of games. What do they have in common? They are all competitive games in need of a fair ranking system for matching opponents and judging progression.

The time clock system chess uses for normal games is the same thing. TONS of games use it. What do THOSE games have in common? They are mostly thought based games that use a turn system.

This quoted argument works when talking about specific game mechanics, not an argument to use whenever anyone brings up anything regarding any other game.
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However, if you're going to bring up chess, I'll refer to a system that I personally prefer much more, which is go.  In go, you have an overall clock, say 30 minutes.  But once that runs out, you have a separate set of very small increments that you revert to.  (These are called byo-yomi, for anyone familiar.)  For example, you may have 5 sets of 30-seconds each.  You only use up a byo-yomi period by exceeding your 30 seconds, at which point you move into the next one, until you have none left.  If your turn lasts less than 30 seconds, then you keep that byo-yomi period.  I prefer this much more to a hard time limit because you don't automatically lose if you took too long earlier in the game, however you are penalized because in a game of go, 30 seconds isn't much time and you're forced to think faster and risk making mistakes in the end-game.
I think this is what IW was trying to do with their "Extend" turn timer thing. It could have been implemented better.
Title: Re: Timer
Post by: Jade on June 10, 2013, 11:51:31 PM
Extend is different, it's really just a loosening of the individual turn time limit.  I mean, yeah, go's byo-yomi system is sort of like extend if extend was applied to your total time clock, not the individual turns.

The ELO system came from Chess but it is used in all different types of games. What do they have in common? They are all competitive games in need of a fair ranking system for matching opponents and judging progression.

The time clock system chess uses for normal games is the same thing. TONS of games use it. What do THOSE games have in common? They are mostly thought based games that use a turn system.

I'm not seeing your point here.  Go is also a competitive game in need of a fair ranking system for matching opponents and judging progression.  And it's a thought based game that uses a turn system.  I just offered a counter-example to your strict time clock, to demonstrate that it's not the only system that works.

In any case, you still haven't convinced me that a game-level timer is necessary or desirable, but I've had my say.  Others can feel free to chime in if they'd like.
Title: Re: Timer
Post by: Zinqf on June 11, 2013, 12:51:38 AM
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In any case, you still haven't convinced me that a game-level timer is necessary or desirable, but I've had my say.  Others can feel free to chime in if they'd like.
It's my personal opinion that a 2 minute maximum turn length with a 20 minute maximum game length per person per game is healthy and beneficial. It's perfectly alright if you don't think a game timer is "necessary" or "desirable".

At the very least the 20 minute full game timer should be a tourney setting and an optional hosting setting.

Both players should have a game limit of 20 minutes. Since turns are simultaneous, this puts the longest possible game at 20 minutes. Turns would still have a 2 minute max length. A player could take 2 minutes for a turn but this contributes to the 20 minute game length timer also.
I think 2 minutes would be a good change as 3 is way too long.
2 min. I agree on.
I'd agree with 2 minutes, although it hasn't been an issue for me either.
At least there seems to be a consensus on Turn length.
Title: Re: Timer
Post by: Jade on June 11, 2013, 11:44:02 AM
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In any case, you still haven't convinced me that a game-level timer is necessary or desirable, but I've had my say.  Others can feel free to chime in if they'd like.
It's my personal opinion that a 2 minute maximum turn length with a 20 minute maximum game length per person per game is healthy and beneficial. It's perfectly alright if you don't think a game timer is "necessary" or "desirable".

At the very least the 20 minute full game timer should be a tourney setting and an optional hosting setting.

I was just pointing out that you hadn't swayed me and that I had nothing new to add.  I'm perfectly happy to disagree.  I don't think it's necessary because I think other mechanics take care of this issue better.  I don't think it's desirable because I don't think anyone should lose these games because of time, and I think the only time restriction that's important is on individual turns.  That's all.

HOWEVER, you make a good point about tournaments that I wasn't considering.  I don't have experience playing these types of tournaments, but I could see the need for set maximum match lengths.  I'd still see this as a trade-off, but maybe a necessary one.
Title: Re: Timer
Post by: WWKnight on June 12, 2013, 08:03:46 AM
Im just going to go on the record as to say that im all for taking the turn timer down to 2 minutes, but would hate to see a game total timer.

There is nothing more dissatisfying to see a great game come to an end before a proper victor can be decided because the timer ran out.  I dont wanna win like that and I certainly dont want to lose like that.
Title: Re: Timer
Post by: Fidasaind on June 12, 2013, 07:03:43 PM
2 minute timer can be a pain in certain decks later in the game. But that happens maybe once or twice per week for me. And this is coming from the guy that plays SoV tokens so often (which is usually the culprit. Using all of the abilities, moving guys into position, playing cards, and then using SoV).
Title: Re: Timer
Post by: MrFahrenheit on June 12, 2013, 07:49:55 PM
Both players should have a game limit of 20 minutes. Since turns are simultaneous, this puts the longest possible game at 20 minutes. Turns would still have a 2 minute max length. A player could take 2 minutes for a turn but this contributes to the 20 minute game length timer also.

While I would like to see that as an option I am pretty uncomfortable with it being the default or only option. I could see some one always taking the maximum time thus being able to guarantee that there is a maximum of 10 turns a game and building a deck based around that fact. Imagine if you not only had to stabilize against Flame Dawn but you also had to pull out ahead in 10 turns or you will lose. Even if you can easily defeat the deck them making sure to filibuster every single turn will make it aggressively boring.
Title: Re: Timer
Post by: Zinqf on June 12, 2013, 07:53:30 PM
Both players should have a game limit of 20 minutes. Since turns are simultaneous, this puts the longest possible game at 20 minutes. Turns would still have a 2 minute max length. A player could take 2 minutes for a turn but this contributes to the 20 minute game length timer also.

While I would like to see that as an option I am pretty uncomfortable with it being the default or only option. I could see some one always taking the maximum time thus being able to guarantee that there is a maximum of 10 turns a game and building a deck based around that fact. Imagine if you not only had to stabilize against Flame Dawn but you also had to pull out ahead in 10 turns or you will lose. Even if you can easily defeat the deck them making sure to filibuster every single turn will make it aggressively boring.
Each player would have 20 minutes, each player is contributing to their own pooled timer. It's not a single timer where both players are contributing to reducing the same one rofl.
Title: Re: Timer
Post by: MrFahrenheit on June 12, 2013, 08:40:56 PM
Each player would have 20 minutes, each player is contributing to their own pooled timer. It's not a single timer where both players are contributing to reducing the same one rofl.

Okay since turns are simultaneous I was thinking the pool would be shared. So your turn clock would stop when you hit end turn with no relation to when the next turn actually begins (if you ended first) and the one who uses their pool first looses. If that is the case then 20 minutes is not the maximum a game could last as you said because who is taking longer could alternate radically with the extreme being one person immediately hitting and and one person taking the full time for an almost 40 minute game. Also if you end turn and then undo it to change things is the time that your turn was ended retroactively taken out of your supply since you were using it to think things through? I can only see two scenarios here, one where the pool is shared based on how long the turn takes (turn in this case being from last turns end to this turn ending which is decided by the slowest player) which is highly exploitable. The other scenario goes into very murky territory with a max game time that is still highly variable and players betting and rationing time in long games (If I end turn now I can plan without losing my pool so long as I un-end it before they finish). I am in favor of the turn timer being capped at two minutes but, simultaneous turns make an overall pool of time just seems like a somewhat confusing and occasionally even stressful solution to a problem I just don't have. I could see it be necessary in tournament play or as an option for casual play I just don't like it as the standard.

Edit

I  guess there is a third option of whoever has taken the most time at the end of 20 minutes looses. That still seems inelegant and outside of tournaments unnecessary and also still leaves open the question of ending and unending turns. Also how does the resolve phase factor in? I don't know how it currently works with turn timers as is but does looking at the results of last turn take time out of your current turn? If it does that seems pretty noob unfriendly as it disincentives them seeing how things resolved and encourages them clicking through without looking. If it doesn't then you are giving the players an amount of time out of the system making this their new planning phase.
Title: Re: Timer
Post by: Zinqf on June 13, 2013, 12:09:35 AM
Each player would have 20 minutes, each player is contributing to their own pooled timer. It's not a single timer where both players are contributing to reducing the same one rofl.

Okay since turns are simultaneous I was thinking the pool would be shared. So your turn clock would stop when you hit end turn with no relation to when the next turn actually begins (if you ended first) and the one who uses their pool first looses. If that is the case then 20 minutes is not the maximum a game could last as you said because who is taking longer could alternate radically with the extreme being one person immediately hitting and and one person taking the full time for an almost 40 minute game. Also if you end turn and then undo it to change things is the time that your turn was ended retroactively taken out of your supply since you were using it to think things through? I can only see two scenarios here, one where the pool is shared based on how long the turn takes (turn in this case being from last turns end to this turn ending which is decided by the slowest player) which is highly exploitable. The other scenario goes into very murky territory with a max game time that is still highly variable and players betting and rationing time in long games (If I end turn now I can plan without losing my pool so long as I un-end it before they finish). I am in favor of the turn timer being capped at two minutes but, simultaneous turns make an overall pool of time just seems like a somewhat confusing and occasionally even stressful solution to a problem I just don't have. I could see it be necessary in tournament play or as an option for casual play I just don't like it as the standard.

Edit

I  guess there is a third option of whoever has taken the most time at the end of 20 minutes looses. That still seems inelegant and outside of tournaments unnecessary and also still leaves open the question of ending and unending turns. Also how does the resolve phase factor in? I don't know how it currently works with turn timers as is but does looking at the results of last turn take time out of your current turn? If it does that seems pretty noob unfriendly as it disincentives them seeing how things resolved and encourages them clicking through without looking. If it doesn't then you are giving the players an amount of time out of the system making this their new planning phase.
Since turns are simultaneous, it's 20 minutes maximum. Players have their own pool which deplete at the same time but stop at the time their turns end.

Turn 1 - Player A takes 30 seconds, Player B takes 60 seconds.
Player A's remaining time 19:30; Player B's remaining time 19:00

Turn 2 - Player A takes 15 seconds, Player B takes 60 seconds.
Player A's remaining time 19:15; Player B's remaining time 18:00

I never pointed out what should happen if a player runs out of time. When a player's pool runs out completely, the player could be subject to a different type of penalty, such as 15 second forced turns instead of outright losing.
Title: Re: Timer
Post by: Jade on June 13, 2013, 12:44:48 AM
Turn 1 - Player A takes 30 seconds, Player B takes 60 seconds.
Player A's remaining time 19:30; Player B's remaining time 19:00

Turn 2 - Player A takes 15 seconds, Player B takes 60 seconds.
Player A's remaining time 19:15; Player B's remaining time 18:00

No, he's right.  This is a very good point.

Turn 1 - Player A takes 60 seconds, Player B takes 5 seconds.
Player A's remaining time 19:00; Player B's remaining time 19:55

Turn 2 - Player A takes 5 seconds, Player B takes 60 seconds.
Player A's remaining time 18:55; Player B's remaining time 18:55

Actual time elapsed: 2 minutes (not 1:05)

I never pointed out what should happen if a player runs out of time. When a player's pool runs out completely, the player could be subject to a different type of penalty, such as 15 second forced turns instead of outright losing.

That's the go system  :P  (well, with only one byo-yomi period of 15 seconds)
Title: Re: Timer
Post by: MrFahrenheit on June 13, 2013, 03:33:41 AM
I never pointed out what should happen if a player runs out of time. When a player's pool runs out completely, the player could be subject to a different type of penalty, such as 15 second forced turns instead of outright losing.

Both players should have a game limit of 20 minutes. Since turns are simultaneous, this puts the longest possible game at 20 minutes. Turns would still have a 2 minute max length. A player could take 2 minutes for a turn but this contributes to the 20 minute game length timer also.

I have put emphasis on the above words because they have been where most of my problems are coming from. I might be getting a bit too hung up on the wording but that heavily implies an immediate end and whoever was ahead winning. If we have separate pools of time and a match going to 20 minutes means it has ended then as far as I know that can only mean whoever has used less times for their turn wins. This is not only really unwieldy but, also widens the gap between new players and veterans who know all of the cards both they and their opponents are using without examining them. Otherwise it would probably be a total of health and morale at which point my filibuster complaint would stand.

If that does not mean match cannot possibly exceed 20 minutes total then we are stuck with a highly variable total time limit (thanks Jade for showing the work for me). Remember you can undo hitting end turn as long as your opponent hasn't ended theirs yet so that would either have to be changed or we would have to have it add all the time between when you first hit end turn and when you undid it to the clock. Otherwise you could gamble by hitting end turn immediately and using that frozen clock to think over what you want to do as long as you resume turn before they end theirs. Even if it is so lax it barely ever effects games there would still presumably be a second timer for it somewhere and that would still be a weight on people's minds. It would be a system that you cannot directly benefit from that exists mostly to intimidate people while giving very little. It would in no way be out of place in a tournament or as an option for the host but I think as the standard in casual or ranked matches it would just be subtly oppressive without adding much.
Title: Re: Timer
Post by: wizzawig on June 17, 2013, 03:00:19 PM
I don't like the idea of anybody losing on time in this game, just like I never liked losing on time in magic.  That said I like fast games and I'm all for the timer being brought down to 2 mins or even lower.

Perhaps there could be an option of speed games with 30s timers.
Title: Re: Timer
Post by: Zinqf on June 17, 2013, 07:57:06 PM
I don't like the idea of anybody losing on time in this game, just like I never liked losing on time in magic.  That said I like fast games and I'm all for the timer being brought down to 2 mins or even lower.

Perhaps there could be an option of speed games with 30s timers.
Build that into Hyper mode Oo

And it wouldn't be "Losing on time", the game just becomes Blitz for them after they run out of total game time. So then their turns are 15-30 second timers that pass their turn like normal. I'm a fan of the "Take your time, but hurry up" philosophy.